Pack size problems moving forward?

[wixfjord]

Interested to hear opinions on this.

We'll be losing a few guys who add a bit of beef to our pack in the coming years, including Cian and Dev.

In say 3 years time our starting pack could be Dooley(Milne?), Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Baird, Deegan, Leavy, Doris.

A seriously exciting 8, but not what you would call massively physical or large in terms of weight. Without running the numbers that pack would be something like 890kg. Sarries/Toulouse on any given day would be 30-40kg heavier.

Is this a concern and should we be placing extra emphasis on fast tracking physically imposing players like Sheahan, putting more meat on Jack Dunne and getting Josh M up to speed to play a Rhys style role at 6?

Might it mean that we see Porter return to LH?

I would imagine this is part of why the loss of Salanoa seemed to sting the management team. Are there any other physical freaks coming through the academy/schools system?

Of course on the other hand, with summer rugby potentially coming in and the traditional role of a forward changing, this might not be a big concern.

Likewise the way we play up front tends to be rooted in aggression and accuracy rather than brute strength or power. We've overcome physically larger sides in recent times like Racing and Toulouse, and only Sarries really outmuscled us in recent times. Certainly it hasn't been a problem for NZ for example, or for us in recent years either.

Thoughts?

[ronk]

We don't have the option of outbidding the richest clubs in Europe for marquee players and we wont win anything if we try.

For good or bad, we have limited capacity to pivot to one extreme and as the game changes we could as easily be caught out.

[ronk]

Also the precision thing is relevant. It doesn't matter if, say, Deegan gives up 15kg when you can chop tackle all day long.

Some teams see us a power team anyway. We go through teams like Scarlets easily enough. More power at the expense of agility gives other teams a route to beat us.

[wixfjord]

All else being equal though size does matter.

We're big enough and more importantly have better coaching/skills to beat 90% of teams, the concern is in tigher games that a pack as named above might find it harder to compete. We've seen that happen with the national side for example.

Also this absolutely isn't about 'pivoting to an extreme'. That's not possible nor is it desirable.

However, we might need to do some planning and investment in either a Fardy replacement NIQ who might offer some increased size, or in a younger player with the physical capability to step into that role.

[leinsterforever]

Murphy ahead of Deegan every day of the week, for me. I think the blindside almost needs to be a bit of a tight forward as well as a loose forward to set a platform - especially if your second row pairing is on the small side.

Wonder what sort of weight Dunne and Charlie Ryan will end up at in two or three years?

[hugonaut]

All else being equal though size does matter.

We're big enough and more importantly have better coaching/skills to beat 90% of teams, the concern is in tigher games that a pack as named above might find it harder to compete. We've seen that happen with the national side for example.

Also this absolutely isn't about 'pivoting to an extreme'. That's not possible nor is it desirable.

However, we might need to do some planning and investment in either a Fardy replacement NIQ who might offer some increased size, or in a younger player with the physical capability to step into that role.

Two years down the line, post-Fardy, I think you can work on it in specific matches by selecting Dunne and Ryan in the second row and Baird on the blindside, maybe look at using Dan Sheehan as a hooker. Baird has a huge engine and is has phenomenal athleticism, he's a great fit for a part-time blindside. He's also a good bit over 110kg at this stage, not the 103kg listed on the academy page. Sheehan is naturally a big unit for a hooker - tall and wide. Again, he's bigger than his academy listing, and has actually lost weight this year. And he's a very good, very natural rugby player.

Dunne is a big man. 203cm and between 112kg & 115kg as a 21 year old [according to this arcticle: https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/jack-dunne ... interview/ ]. He's been a little bit lost in the mix with his injury and Baird exploding on to the scene, but he is quality.

[neiliog93]

Size was a big reason why Saracens were able to beat us in last year's Heineken Cup final. We could really do with a big, mean heavy second row (6'7"+, 120kg+). Would have been nice to snap up a Will Skelton or even RG Snyman style player. If Munster were able to afford it, there's no reason we can't, but there just aren't that many 6'7"+, 120kg+ second rows with decent skill and athleticism out there.

If we had managed to keep hold of Salanoa I'd have agreed with shifting Porter back to loosehead (with a long-term, post-Healy prop set-up of 1.Porter, 3.Furlong, 17.Dooley, 18.Salanoa). But now, I'm not so sure.

[neiliog93]

And before someone chimes in, yes, Devin Toner is over 6'7" and over 120kg, but he doesn't have the power or athleticism at that size to be a true enforcer. I mean someone more in the Skelton, Snyman, Martin Johnson, etc. type mould.

[wixfjord]

Anyone else coming through the academy in the pack with that top level size and physicality?

Milne seems to be a bit of a bruiser?

[neiliog93]

Anyone else coming through the academy in the pack with that top level size and physicality?

Milne seems to be a bit of a bruiser?

Milne is 'big enough' to be a top level prop and is very dynamic, but he's not an enormous bruiser in the Phil Vickery or Vincent Debaty mould. Salanoa, despite not being that tall (5'11" - 6'0"), had the size, weight and raw power to be a true bruiser. But sure look...

[mildlyinterested]

Anyone else coming through the academy in the pack with that top level size and physicality?

Milne seems to be a bit of a bruiser?

Soroka at 6 potentially.
SOB at 7 potentially.

[ronk]

And before someone chimes in, yes, Devin Toner is over 6'7" and over 120kg, but he doesn't have the power or athleticism at that size to be a true enforcer. I mean someone more in the Skelton, Snyman, Martin Johnson, etc. type mould.

Dev doesn’t take a step backwards. He carries his share. I’m happy enough with him over Kleyn, even against abrasive physical teams.

EDIT: autocorrect ruined Kleyn’s name

[neiliog93]

And before someone chimes in, yes, Devin Toner is over 6'7" and over 120kg, but he doesn't have the power or athleticism at that size to be a true enforcer. I mean someone more in the Skelton, Snyman, Martin Johnson, etc. type mould.

Dev doesn’t take a step backwards. He carries his share. I’m happy enough with him over alleys, even against abrasive physical teams.

I largely agree with you. Dev is an excellent line-out and restart option, rarely makes mistakes, has a big work-rate, solid attitude, intelligence, and surprisingly soft hands. But is body simply isn't capable of the feats of brutal physicality that world class tight-head second-rows produce.

[curates_egg]

If Munster were able to afford it

[neiliog93]

If Munster were able to afford it

If the Snyman to Munster signing hadn't been announced yet and someone on here suggested Snyman as a desirable signing for Leinster (or for Munster), there would immediately be five or six crybabies posting about how we don't have enough money to get top calibre NIQs. Throw de Allende into the mix as well and the picture is very different to the one often painted on here with regard to big money NIQ signings.

[ronk]

If Munster were able to afford it

We got Fardy instead. In the tough away games he can go 6. We have him, Toner, Ryan, Baird along with Molony and Dunne. We barely blinked when Dowling left.

We’ve gone up against the biggest of the big boys and won our share. I don’t think we have to worry about Saracens anymore.

Munster could be interesting though. They have recruited some big players but they also lost Botha. They have scope to pick a bigger team if they put Beirne at 6. de Allende and Farrell will be a big enough midfield too.

[ronk]

If Munster were able to afford it

If the Snyman to Munster signing hadn't been announced yet and someone on here suggested Snyman as a desirable signing for Leinster (or for Munster), there would immediately be five or six crybabies posting about how we don't have enough money to get top calibre NIQs. Throw de Allende into the mix as well and the picture is very different to the one often painted on here with regard to big money NIQ signings.

We have a hard enough time holding on to our academy players and we’ve done alright with a few key signings where we needed help.

I generally think that Leo would sign someone if he saw a need or value, but he’s not going to spend just because he can. The need could change in a few key positions but maybe now is not the right time to strengthen hooker or wing/fullback.

[neiliog93]

I think Cronin will leave at the end of this season (will be 35 and seems to be out of the picture with Ireland), either retiring or getting a final bigger pay package abroad. We might need a hooker then, especially if Bryan Byrne is gone. Tracy is 29 now and is grand for the Pro 14 and even the earlier rounds of the H Cup, but is underpowered in the furnace of H Cup knockout games. Others have said it before but I like the look of Dweba at the Cheehtahs, not a SA international and not very high profile/expensive either.

[Morf]

I think Cronin will leave at the end of this season (will be 35 and seems to be out of the picture with Ireland), either retiring or getting a final bigger pay package abroad. We might need a hooker then, especially if Bryan Byrne is gone. Tracy is 29 now and is grand for the Pro 14 and even the earlier rounds of the H Cup, but is underpowered in the furnace of H Cup knockout games. Others have said it before but I like the look of Dweba at the Cheehtahs, not a SA international and not very high profile/expensive either.

Bordeaux have signed him.

[neiliog93]

I think Cronin will leave at the end of this season (will be 35 and seems to be out of the picture with Ireland), either retiring or getting a final bigger pay package abroad. We might need a hooker then, especially if Bryan Byrne is gone. Tracy is 29 now and is grand for the Pro 14 and even the earlier rounds of the H Cup, but is underpowered in the furnace of H Cup knockout games. Others have said it before but I like the look of Dweba at the Cheehtahs, not a SA international and not very high profile/expensive either.

Bordeaux have signed him.

Source? Also, signed him from 2021-22 onwards or 2020-21?..