2000/21 Membership

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LeinsterLeader
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by LeinsterLeader »

A real eye opener for me anyway :shock:

https://twitter.com/jarrodbromley/statu ... 12/photo/1

I would have thought that due to our success we would be in a better financial position then the other provinces at least. It would seem not.

Interested to hear other thoughts?

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curates_egg
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by curates_egg »

That article is why I joined this thread.
Leinster is one of the only financially sound rugby “clubs” in Europe. If we’re that fooked, you can only imagine how bad it is for the vast majority of others, which were loss-making and in debt before the crisis.

The IRFU is going to be in a huge hole, because our model is so dependent on bums on seats. But the Premiership clubs, which are overwhelmingly loss-making and in debt, are surely even more goosed?

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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by LeinsterLeader »

curates_egg wrote:That article is why I joined this thread.
Leinster is one of the only financially sound rugby “clubs” in Europe. If we’re that fooked, you can only imagine how bad it is for the vast majority of others, which were loss-making and in debt before the crisis.

The IRFU is going to be in a huge hole, because our model is so dependent on bums on seats. But the Premiership clubs, which are overwhelmingly loss-making and in debt, are surely even more goosed?
While I wouldn't pretend to begin to know about the runnings of a rugby club I would say that privately owned clubs like those in the premiership would be in a better position to ride this out "borrow from Peter to pay Paul" and allow themselves to go deeper into depth in the hope of making it up when we come out the other side. I would imagine the IRFU won't allow any of the provinces to build up big depths before they start making deep cuts.

On that point I was surprised that all renewal of foreign player contracts were not stopped and I was surprised (although delighted) to hear that Fardy was being resigned. Perhaps the deal was done at that that point any there was no going back.

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ronk
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by ronk »

The IRFU have to consider the long term future of the game. Which is more important in a rare crisis like this, keep the squad together or take on less debt.

Given the squad, I'd say that they would lean towards the former.

Now is not the time for a firesale.

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ronk
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by ronk »

The salary cap in England will have some deflationary effects on salaries here unless the French expand enough to offset it. Even then there'd be a lot of England based players on the way out before we hit inflation.

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munster#1
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by munster#1 »

curates_egg wrote:We do have private involvement in Irish rugby already, even though I am uncomfortable with some of those who have funded aspects of the IRFU and Munster’s budgets: I’d rather they paid tax or hadn’t benefited from questionable contracting terms.

The notion that “private investment“ will be a positive factor in a financial crisis for the sport appears to defy the logic in other sectors of the economy, where public intervention has been necessary to save ailing businesses.
We do not yet have a liquidity crisis, but once the economic impact of Covid really hits home, will British banks really be in a position to give English clubs even more debt to pay the salaries of rugby players? I struggle to see that happening.
These “private investors” are not selfless benefactors: the involvement of millionaires in these sporting entities is often a way of funnelling funds in a way that serves their financial self interest.
Private investment comes from rich business people, and not all businesses will be effected by the oncoming recession.
Many businesses are recession proof, and others may even thrive during a recession.
Many of these private investors invest in clubs for romantic reasons, with no prospect of ever seeing a financial return on their investment.
Much like Denis O Brien with Leinster and JP at Munster.

If the IRFU are to introduce their proposed 20% paycut, do you really think that clubs in France will not be looking at the likes of Furlong, Porter, Ryan, Henshaw and Healy?
They are players who imo would be a great fit in French rugby, and could well expect a pay increase in France.
Granted not all will move for money, but you don’t need to lose all before you feel the pain.

Then there are players a level below those who may end up on more money in Pro D2 than 80% of their current salary.

I hope I am wrong, I hope that I am just taking a pessimistic view on this, but if the IRFU make their projected loss of 15-20 million this season, and likely similar next season, then it’s hard to see how the provinces and the IRFU will manage to retain the current quality of players.

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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Ruckedtobits »

munster#1 wrote:
curates_egg wrote:We do have private involvement in Irish rugby already, even though I am uncomfortable with some of those who have funded aspects of the IRFU and Munster’s budgets: I’d rather they paid tax or hadn’t benefited from questionable contracting terms.

The notion that “private investment“ will be a positive factor in a financial crisis for the sport appears to defy the logic in other sectors of the economy, where public intervention has been necessary to save ailing businesses.
We do not yet have a liquidity crisis, but once the economic impact of Covid really hits home, will British banks really be in a position to give English clubs even more debt to pay the salaries of rugby players? I struggle to see that happening.
These “private investors” are not selfless benefactors: the involvement of millionaires in these sporting entities is often a way of funnelling funds in a way that serves their financial self interest.
Private investment comes from rich business people, and not all businesses will be effected by the oncoming recession.
Many businesses are recession proof, and others may even thrive during a recession.
Many of these private investors invest in clubs for romantic reasons, with no prospect of ever seeing a financial return on their investment.
Much like Denis O Brien with Leinster and JP at Munster.

If the IRFU are to introduce their proposed 20% paycut, do you really think that clubs in France will not be looking at the likes of Furlong, Porter, Ryan, Henshaw and Healy?
They are players who imo would be a great fit in French rugby, and could well expect a pay increase in France.
Granted not all will move for money, but you don’t need to lose all before you feel the pain.

Then there are players a level below those who may end up on more money in Pro D2 than 80% of their current salary.

I hope I am wrong, I hope that I am just taking a pessimistic view on this, but if the IRFU make their projected loss of 15-20 million this season, and likely similar next season, then it’s hard to see how the provinces and the IRFU will manage to retain the current quality of players.
Don't know where you got the idea that everything is so rosy in France. This extraxt from MidiOlympique lasr Friday will give you a flavour of the reality (incidentally, being decided right now in the World Rugby Office in Dublin):

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2 ... tory.shtml

[The headline says "If you touch the Top14, that will mean war" -Paul Goze to Laporte the FFR President]

The French Top14 believe their Club game will be the major losers in the new 'Holy Grail', the Rugby World Calendar.

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munster#1
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by munster#1 »

As things stand, they will likely fair out much better than the 4 provinces.
Should these changes to the calendar come about, then we should also expect a financial impact much like in France.

You can be assured that attendance will also be reduced here, especially as the season will coincide with the GAA.
It will also coincide with people going on summer holidays, so I personally wouldn’t be surprised if attendances dropped by 30% for Pro 14 games, and also a likely decline in HC attendances.

But the provinces will lack the funding of rich sugar daddies.

Again, I hope I am just being pessimistic, and non of Ireland’s top talent are forced to take pay cuts, and that the IRFU remain reasonably competitive against French clubs, but I personally see Irish rugby getting hit harder than French rugby.

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curates_egg
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by curates_egg »

munster#1 wrote:Many of these private investors invest in clubs for romantic reasons, with no prospect of ever seeing a financial return on their investment.
Much like Denis O Brien with Leinster and JP at Munster.
I think you need to look up the definition of investment.

And if you think that no benefit accrued to the individuals you name, and/or that they made those funds available purely based on altruism, you have fallen for their gambit hook, line and sinker.
"Romantic reasons" and Brian O'Donnochu handing over money is about the funniest thing I have ever heard :lol: :lol: :lol:
Could I interest you in some magic beans, while I have your attention?

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Dave Cahill
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Dave Cahill »

JP has never invested in or financially supported Munster Rugby save for match tickets and pints. He does however support Limerick GAA financially. He is also an investor in the Limerick Rugby Museum, which is a private enterprise
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munster#1
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by munster#1 »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishe ... 83246.html

But this fact, is beside the point.

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munster#1
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by munster#1 »

Duplicate

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munster#1
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by munster#1 »

curates_egg wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Many of these private investors invest in clubs for romantic reasons, with no prospect of ever seeing a financial return on their investment.
Much like Denis O Brien with Leinster and JP at Munster.
I think you need to look up the definition of investment.

And if you think that no benefit accrued to the individuals you name, and/or that they made those funds available purely based on altruism, you have fallen for their gambit hook, line and sinker.
"Romantic reasons" and Brian O'Donnochu handing over money is about the funniest thing I have ever heard :lol: :lol: :lol:
Could I interest you in some magic beans, while I have your attention?
Not sure who Brian O Donnochu is, but the below is a reference to the funding from Denis O Brien.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irisht ... mode%3Damp

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Dave Cahill
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Dave Cahill »

munster#1 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishe ... 83246.html

But this fact, is beside the point.
A 'fact' refuted the next day by Munster Rugby and the IRFU. And, you know, the accounts.
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Dave Cahill
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Dave Cahill »

I had forgotten that Pa won Limerick Man of the Year for the Thomond Development though.
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by curates_egg »

Dave Cahill wrote:JP has never invested in or financially supported Munster Rugby save for match tickets and pints. He does however support Limerick GAA financially. He is also an investor in the Limerick Rugby Museum, which is a private enterprise
His big money 'donation' was supposed to be the JP McManus International Rugby Experience in Limerick. If and when that comes to fruition, it is very good positive advertising and a support-generating bung, at a fraction of the cost of the tax he doesn't pay.

I had understood he had also contributed a chunk to the redevelopment of the Debt Star though? That was reported in various places. Including a book on the stadium, which I have obviously never read but turned up in a google search once. I believe it has the original title The Story of Thomond Park.
I guess all Leinster fans have, in a way, also contributed their own chunks to the Debt Star though.

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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Dave Cahill »

curates_egg wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:JP has never invested in or financially supported Munster Rugby save for match tickets and pints. He does however support Limerick GAA financially. He is also an investor in the Limerick Rugby Museum, which is a private enterprise
His big money 'donation' was supposed to be the JP McManus International Rugby Experience in Limerick. If and when that comes to fruition, it is very good positive advertising and a support-generating bung, at a fraction of the cost of the tax he doesn't pay.

I had understood he had also contributed a chunk to the redevelopment of the Debt Star though? That was reported in various places. Including a book on the stadium, which I have obviously never read but turned up in a google search once. I believe it has the original title The Story of Thomond Park.
I guess all Leinster fans have, in a way, also contributed their own chunks to the Debt Star though.
Its like Rory Mcilroy and Ulster Rugby - if enough people say it enough times, it becomes true. Like Socrates playing Sigerson Cup
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Dave Cahill
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Dave Cahill »

Pat Whelan is actually a very interesting character that has lead a colourful life on and off the pitch. Someone will write a cracking book about it one day
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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Dave Cahill wrote:Pat Whelan is actually a very interesting character that has lead a colourful life on and off the pitch. Someone will write a cracking book about it one day
Don't hold your breath on that one. Both subject and author would have to be dead before they'd find a publisher!

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Re: 2000/21 Membership

Post by Dave Cahill »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Pat Whelan is actually a very interesting character that has lead a colourful life on and off the pitch. Someone will write a cracking book about it one day
Don't hold your breath on that one. Both subject and author would have to be dead before they'd find a publisher!
Oh I know, even the stories I know to be true would frighten the bejaysus out of a publisher! Still, fascinating!
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