Leinster and scrumhalf development

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mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

Purist98 wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 6:11 pm
I presume here that the National Talent Squad, as well as the 22 below that, is sub-academy and underage representative players?
Yeah that would be my reading.

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Serb
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Serb »

ronk wrote:PPE made a few breaks on Friday and Leinster were unphased some of the time if he wasnt immediately at the ruck.

Its not the players, its the system. Weighting ref interpretations to give more tap penalty opportunities at age grade level would be one useful step.
Yeah, seems like our system is for the pillars to be aware of the location of the 9 and take over if they’re submerged in a ruck. Bent popped up a number of times at 9 on Friday, Healy did the same vs Saracens too I think.

In term of snipes, .JPG and McGrath can both do it, McGrath is actually excellent at finding those gaps, but his lack of bulk does catch him out in that he gets turned over quite a bit if he’s tackled. I feel like Gibson-Park makes much better decisions when he breaks the line.

Theleinsterlad
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Theleinsterlad »

Serb wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:04 pm
ronk wrote:PPE made a few breaks on Friday and Leinster were unphased some of the time if he wasnt immediately at the ruck.

Its not the players, its the system. Weighting ref interpretations to give more tap penalty opportunities at age grade level would be one useful step.
Yeah, seems like our system is for the pillars to be aware of the location of the 9 and take over if they’re submerged in a ruck. Bent popped up a number of times at 9 on Friday, Healy did the same vs Saracens too I think.

In term of snipes, .JPG and McGrath can both do it, McGrath is actually excellent at finding those gaps, but his lack of bulk does catch him out in that he gets turned over quite a bit if he’s tackled. I feel like Gibson-Park makes much better decisions when he breaks the line.
For me the difference between McGrath and JGP is intelligence on how the game is played. McGrath just takes too long sometimes in getting the ball out. On the face he looks fast enough but the times he stalls or is slow to see what’s in front of him harms us. Before anyone jumps on me we are talking fine margins here, but JGP is the better scrum half

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Theleinsterlad »

Serb wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:04 pm
ronk wrote:PPE made a few breaks on Friday and Leinster were unphased some of the time if he wasnt immediately at the ruck.

Its not the players, its the system. Weighting ref interpretations to give more tap penalty opportunities at age grade level would be one useful step.
Yeah, seems like our system is for the pillars to be aware of the location of the 9 and take over if they’re submerged in a ruck. Bent popped up a number of times at 9 on Friday, Healy did the same vs Saracens too I think.

In term of snipes, .JPG and McGrath can both do it, McGrath is actually excellent at finding those gaps, but his lack of bulk does catch him out in that he gets turned over quite a bit if he’s tackled. I feel like Gibson-Park makes much better decisions when he breaks the line.
For me the difference between McGrath and JGP is intelligence on how the game is played. McGrath just takes too long sometimes in getting the ball out. On the face he looks fast enough but the times he stalls or is slow to see what’s in front of him harms us. Before anyone jumps on me we are talking fine margins here, but JGP is the better scrum half

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hugonaut
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by hugonaut »

Theleinsterlad wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 8:14 am
Serb wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:04 pm
ronk wrote:PPE made a few breaks on Friday and Leinster were unphased some of the time if he wasnt immediately at the ruck.

Its not the players, its the system. Weighting ref interpretations to give more tap penalty opportunities at age grade level would be one useful step.
Yeah, seems like our system is for the pillars to be aware of the location of the 9 and take over if they’re submerged in a ruck. Bent popped up a number of times at 9 on Friday, Healy did the same vs Saracens too I think.

In term of snipes, .JPG and McGrath can both do it, McGrath is actually excellent at finding those gaps, but his lack of bulk does catch him out in that he gets turned over quite a bit if he’s tackled. I feel like Gibson-Park makes much better decisions when he breaks the line.
For me the difference between McGrath and JGP is intelligence on how the game is played. McGrath just takes too long sometimes in getting the ball out. On the face he looks fast enough but the times he stalls or is slow to see what’s in front of him harms us. Before anyone jumps on me we are talking fine margins here, but JGP is the better scrum half
Maybe I'm taking your up wrong, but I think that's a little unfair on McGrath. I consider him as having loads of rugby intelligence.

In my opinion, he knows he doesn't have a great pass [for a pro scrum-half] and that's the first part of a causal sequence that slows him at the base. He wants to get the ball set up in his hands a certain way, he wants to have a clear backswing and he always wants to make the same passing motion that he can trust. This is just a supposition, but I reckon he feels that if he gets away from that passing technique or loses concentration, anything could happen to the ball.

I think he has worked really hard on his passing technique, but it's just that he has – again, for a pro scrum-half – a relatively low ceiling in that department. Some scrum-halves [or players in different] can absolutely fire passes through the air, and they can flip them from unusual or disadvantageous positions. McGrath can't, and knows he can't.

Practice can make you better at anything, but it doesn't mean that you are going to be the best at something. In any athletic endeavour there are always guys who have a natural aptitude for the task – some combination of variables in their physiological make-up that makes it easy for them to do something, and allows them [given appropriate training] to do that thing at an amazingly high level.

For example, Aaron Rogers just has a better arm than Alex Smith. There's no real difference in age or height or size or experience or effort, but Rodgers has got an arm that can make all the throws, and he knows it can get him out of trouble. He can be running sideways under pressure, jump up in the air and throw it across the middle of the pitch to the other hashmark and get away with it, because he has got a cannon of an arm and great touch.

JGP's pass is faster through the air, he doesn't need as much of a wind-up and he can throw more passes from compromised positions. At the moment, he also looks as though he has way more confidence than Luke does, which helps. We play a huge amount off our No10, so getting the ball to the No10 quickly optimises our game.

mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

the lack of game time at the moment for leinster's young 9's certainly won't help them develop.. why they haven't played more A games I dunno.

HOS has a half of A rugby since March.
Patterson hasn't played.
Foley has 2 minutes of A rugby.

Haven't seen Rob Gilsenan's name on any team sheets for club rugby.
Ben Murphy has played once for Old Wesley i think.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Serb »

You’d have to assume the management doesn’t really rate Osbourne, Patterson or O’Sullivan.

Take 10 as a comparison. We have two incumbents in Byrne and Sexton, but we still found time for 10 appearances, including 3 starts for both Harry Byrne and Ciaran Frawley at outhalf. Interesting that they have identical appearances at 10 incidentally.

Hugh O’Sullivan got 6 appearances off the bench, Osbourne got 5 appearances including 1 start and Patterson didn’t feature at all. Munster away was the only game last season that either McGrath or JGP didn’t start.

In fairness, Sexton barely featured at all last season so there was a lot more games to go around at 10, but it’s still fairly slim pickings for the other 9s at the moment.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

yeah it'd say it's fairly safe assumption.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

good try from James Kenny for Lansdowne here: https://www.facebook.com/oldwesley/vide ... 059285949/

was same age group as HOS and Patterson but struggled with injury out of school.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

looks like munster down to three healthy senior scrumhalves with the possibility of losing two to ireland?

I wonder if one of the young leinster 9's will move south.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by backrower8 »

I am with Hugonaut on this, especially as regards J10’s negative influence the longer he goes on because he is too dominant a character but his powers are simultaneously waning.

He is the greatest out-half Leinster has ever had in my opinion and probably only Kyle trumps him for Ireland, but there comes a time and we are passed it with Johnny. Unfortunately neither Jackson or Carberry are there for an orderly exit, so we need Johnny to be usurped in Leinster first, even if that means the team going backwards for half a season.

I also agree with Mildly as regards Gilsenan and Kenny as prospects. Especially the former. I knew Gilsenan as a kid at minis. Always a great baller but was very struck by his development so that by 6th year he was the dominant half-back in a cup winning side. He has a ballsy but likable character and, like Kenny, is a bigger man than all of the other scrum-halfs currently under contract.

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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

Murphy goes to Munster for a 2 month loan.

https://www.the42.ie/ben-murphy-leinste ... 1-Oct2020/

As an aside I really disagree with the characterisation of saying that a player missed out on the academy and joined the sub-academy. The sub-academy is the default pathway and a small number of exceptions bypass it. Saying that they missed out on the Academy is humbug.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Ruckedtobits »

ronk wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 12:48 pm
Murphy goes to Munster for a 2 month loan.

https://www.the42.ie/ben-murphy-leinste ... 1-Oct2020/

As an aside I really disagree with the characterisation of saying that a player missed out on the academy and joined the sub-academy. The sub-academy is the default pathway and a small number of exceptions bypass it. Saying that they missed out on the Academy is humbug.
+1
that's the absolute reality and it bears repeating often

mildlyinterested
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

Murphy was already in the sub-academy as a under-19.

He wasn't offered an academy place and kept his place in the sub-academy as a under-20.

He is miles away from a leinster cap, if he ever gets one... hopefully he can use this opportunity to improve, maybe pick up some things from Casey.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by munster#1 »

Any of you know much about Murphy?

Given that Murray is likely to be away for a considerable spell, and the possibility that Casey may see plenty of time in the Irish training squad, Murphy may see himself picking up plenty of minutes during his visit.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

decent prospect but far from a sure thing to make the leinster academy, moved to Old Wesley from Clontarf this summer in order to get more game time at AIL level. didn't get much time for irish u20's so if he gets any time for Munster we will learn a lot more about him. From what i've seen he does the scrumhalf basics well but isn't much of a threat with ball in hand.

You'd assume he will only appear for Munster if there are more injuries, surprised Munster don't have anyone local to call upon who'd offer more. You'd wonder if Richie M had anything to do with it.

A smaller Nick McCarthy is maybe a good comparison.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

PP pretty good for UCD here at the start of the year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRw6Pv3 ... underSport

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

interesting to see Hughie as bench 9 again over Osborne, thought he was good off the bench last week, tho it would be difficult to look bad at that stage.

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by blockhead »

Munster at it again:
In player news, Ireland U20 scrum-half Ben Murphy has joined the province on a seven-week deal.

A member of the Leinster sub-Academy, Murphy joined the squad at the HPC today and provides injury cover with Neil Cronin ruled out due to a long-term knee injury.

With Conor Murray on international duty, Murphy will provide injury cover for Craig Casey and Nick McCarthy.
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mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

I'd be surprised if he got a leinster academy place to be honest.. though stranger things have happened..

It will be interesting to see how he does down south.. hasn't worked out well for Nick.

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