Leinster and scrumhalf development

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Workhorse
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Workhorse »

hugonaut wrote:Yes, you make very good points and have certainly got me thinking harder about it. I still think that there's value in having a 'go-to' option in that situation, but as you have pointed out, you can't be blind to the particular circumstances of a given situation. You play the game, not the pattern.
I think these days, especially at higher levels, what separates the teams these days is the players decision making. The gap in skill and fitness these days is fairly minimal now so decision making is key. In practice you might practice based on yeah if the 9 isn't there slow it down, pick and go and reset, but the players have to be open to the potential that it could be on elsewhere and need to trust their own and each others decision making to go when it is on.

Sometimes speed beats quality, perfect example of that is the all blacks two pass rule. When they turn the ball over they get the ball two passes away ASAP, don't have to be the best passes they just have to do the job.

Sorry for the tangent, lack of rugby is causing my tactics nerd brain to overload and spill out every so often I think :)

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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

There are 4 different tactics being discussed and they all have their places:

Slow pick and goes to get a scrumhalf back in play or work infield.

Fast pick and goes to capitalize on momentum and a well spread defence.

Quick pass by non-9 to stop counterruck

Quick pass by non-9 for a quick wider attack.

Most of the time I played there was a call when the out half wanted quick ball. We'd get out of the way or act as scrumhalf if he wasn't around.

mildlyinterested
Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

full leinster v scarlets game from 2007

Cillian Willis at 9, Sexton at 10, Kearney at 15, Fitz at 11

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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

mildlyinterested wrote:full leinster v scarlets game from 2007

Cillian Willis at 9, Sexton at 10, Kearney at 15, Fitz at 11
I liked Willis, thought he would have achieved more.

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Dave Cahill
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Dave Cahill »

ronk wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:full leinster v scarlets game from 2007

Cillian Willis at 9, Sexton at 10, Kearney at 15, Fitz at 11
I liked Willis, thought he would have achieved more.
I thought a lot of him, he was going so well at Leinster before he had those shoulder injuries. He never seemed right after those surgeries at Ulster or Connacht, but when he came back to Leinster he played really well and seemed to be back on an upward path again - the move to Sale went well initially before the concussions
I have Bumbleflex

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

Interesting at u19 level for leinster, Michael Moloney who was starting for leinster u18 schools last summer and involved with Ireland u18 this christmas was the bench outhalf for Blackrock in the cup. He returns to blackrock next season, playing 9 or 10 i'm not sure.
In the meantime, Conor Duggan and Oisin Devitt the standout 9's in the cup have made the Leinster u19 team. Unclear right now if Moloney did too, but you'd assume so.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

re-watching Leinster Benetton from Jan where McGrath was captain, was very good through 1st 20 mins with some great sniping runs.

had a very good game overall.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

Leinster could do worse than look at this young ulster 9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC52YXYkaxo&t=2s

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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Ruckedtobits »

mildlyinterested wrote:Leinster could do worse than look at this young ulster 9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC52YXYkaxo&t=2s
Very impressive at spotting and taking gaps. Would have to see the basics of his passing game more before I'd venture an opinion but not a bad highlights reel.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

OTB interview this evening with Cooney, he admits regrets about leinster career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ftEpGnWpc

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

Nick McCarthy on bench for Munster A. Safe to say his move south hasn't worked out for him.

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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

mildlyinterested wrote:
September 18th, 2020, 10:26 am
Nick McCarthy on bench for Munster A. Safe to say his move south hasn't worked out for him.
Didnt think it would go South so quickly. Not quite the nadir of being one of 2 scrumhalves on the bench in the Cara Cup. That was proper humiliation.

Munster don't have a game this weekend so at least he gets preseason time.

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LeinsterLeader
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by LeinsterLeader »

ronk wrote:
September 18th, 2020, 10:49 am
mildlyinterested wrote:
September 18th, 2020, 10:26 am
Nick McCarthy on bench for Munster A. Safe to say his move south hasn't worked out for him.
Didnt think it would go South so quickly. Not quite the nadir of being one of 2 scrumhalves on the bench in the Cara Cup. That was proper humiliation.

Munster don't have a game this weekend so at least he gets preseason time.
In fairness I remmebr Andrew Conway coming up to Donnybrook with Munster A about 6 months after he left. Munster got hammered and AC looked like he couldn't give a toss. I thought he was finished to be honest. So things can still turn around for NM. It's hard to see it but it could happen

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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

LeinsterLeader wrote:
September 18th, 2020, 11:05 am
ronk wrote:
September 18th, 2020, 10:49 am
mildlyinterested wrote:
September 18th, 2020, 10:26 am
Nick McCarthy on bench for Munster A. Safe to say his move south hasn't worked out for him.
Didnt think it would go South so quickly. Not quite the nadir of being one of 2 scrumhalves on the bench in the Cara Cup. That was proper humiliation.

Munster don't have a game this weekend so at least he gets preseason time.
In fairness I remmebr Andrew Conway coming up to Donnybrook with Munster A about 6 months after he left. Munster got hammered and AC looked like he couldn't give a toss. I thought he was finished to be honest. So things can still turn around for NM. It's hard to see it but it could happen
He outlasted the coach and got a reset.

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Shane Jennings
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by mildlyinterested »

some interesting stuff here from fanning on irish scrumhalves
So you might look like Antoine Dupont, the awesomely talented Toulouse and France scrumhalf, who stands 5ft 7ins but weighs in over 13st, or you could be closer to Conor Murray who is 6ft and over 14-and-a-half stone. Whatever, if you don't pack a punch then you will always, literally, come up short.

This isn't an issue until push comes to shove. So while our training model fires out nines who can fire out passes, and float box-kicks, we seem to have by-passed the need for athletic players who can put some fear into defenders that they might be put under pressure to move and tackle.

The Irish system is not weighed down with these models. Not only across the top, where Farrell will be juggling names this week, but in the ranks below. Between the provincial academies and the National Talent Squad (NTS) there are 12 scrumhalves visible on the IRFU radar. There are another 22 below that, who as yet are specks on the screen.

Of that dozen across the academies and NTS, three are lads who have been encouraged to change into the nine shirt. This is good. Most of the time we are busy hustling fellas into the front row where panic-mode over props is never far away.

So at least there is an awareness that scrumhalf is an important cog in the wheel. It's unclear, however, if the prime reason for shifting them is because of their athletic potential. Equally we understand that there may not be any immediately obvious game-changers in that overall group.

Perhaps six of the 12 will graduate to senior pro status, which would be a big box ticked. However, if you're Farrell this week you're looking for men who can make things happen.

If the cupboard is bare on that front now, then it's unlikely to change before Farrell moves on to his next job. In which case we will continue to pay a price for the prototype everyone has been admiring: the Aaron Smith model. The excellence of the All Black is inarguable.

Through him, tempo has become king at the coaching clinic. It might not suit you at all to play at that pace, but it became the fashion. Rugby being rugby, coaches have been slapping each other out of the way to worship at that altar.

Consequently we now have an army of small men who are very fit and very busy and can get through a mountain of work in an afternoon. But they may not pose a threat to anyone.

We haven't arrived at this situation overnight. Schmidt used to like a whinge on this topic in his time, without being specific on exactly the issue and how it should be fixed. So it wasn't always clear if his problem was with the policy or the personnel. Surely Farrell can see it, but is too late to fix it. Fewer clones please, and more cyclones.

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neiliog93
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by neiliog93 »

Good article.

In my relatively recent experience of playing underage rugby at a reasonably high level in Ireland, there was a tendency to shift small, not very athletic people into scrum-half, simply because they couldn't really play anywhere else. Now, some of these guys obviously had other skills like intelligence, hand-eye co-ordination, passing ability, kicking ability, etc. But they rarely represented an 'athletic threat' in and of themselves. In fact, if someone was playing scrum-half and demonstrated speed, stepping ability, balance, disproportionate strength for their size, aggression, etc., they were considered to be 'wasted' in the scrum-half position and often shifted to out-half, wing or fullback.

Basically, there is a coaching culture in Ireland where anyone who is a promising scrum-half and has a good level of athleticism will be shifted out to out-half or the outside backs some time between the ages of 12 and 17. This has knock-on effects years later at pro level in terms of the level of athleticism of our scrum-halves.

Of our current roster of young scrum-halves in Ireland, Craig Casey and Paddy Patterson, despite both being very small, appear to be snappy and athletic. Although the latter isn't getting much of a look-in at Leinster.
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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

Scrum half is a position that only scrumhalves want to play, and there's very little positional movement of scrumhalves.

Matt Healy is a big example. But he's also Connacht's highest try scorer. Murray and O'Leary came through when the pendulum was swinging away from Stringer.

There hasn't really been a shortage of guys over 14 stones at scrumhalf and we are a demanding bunch that don't really tolerate certain timings in scrumhalves.

Carbery is someone who can play scrumhalf, and moving him would feel alien.

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Oldschool
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Oldschool »

The article didn't say anything new and didn't point up the most important requirement for any scrum half.
A decent pass.
Stringer was such a good SH because of it.
John Cooney, Jameson Guinness Park and Kieran Marmion of our first choice SHs have the best passes.
In addition they are all quick.
Neither the provinces or Ireland seem inclined to want their SHs to make breaks because all three of those players have shown that they can make breaks.
The other (extreme) alternative is to go for someone like Furlong or Larmour.
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ronk
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by ronk »

PPE made a few breaks on Friday and Leinster were unphased some of the time if he wasnt immediately at the ruck.

Its not the players, its the system. Weighting ref interpretations to give more tap penalty opportunities at age grade level would be one useful step.

Purist98
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Re: Leinster and scrumhalf development

Post by Purist98 »

I presume here that the National Talent Squad, as well as the 22 below that, is sub-academy and underage representative players?

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