Leinster and scrumhalf development

[Purist98]

/quote]

re-watched Michaels Newbridge, Gunne was excellent especially considering he might have been the youngest player on the field. Hopefully he continues to improve.

Think he might be older than McErlean but I get your point, he made one huge tackle on Kiely at one point that showed he clearly doesn't shy away from the physical aspect of the game.

the physical aspect of the game, has to be a given if he is going to be a pro, much more interested in his skills and decision making especially at his size.

I want the 9 to be the most skillful player on the team.

He's got a bullet pass, good kicking game, including being a very handy place kicker, threat around the fringes, good support player, obviously he's young and has a long way to go but he's got all the skills

[mildlyinterested]

He's got a bullet pass, good kicking game, including being a very handy place kicker, threat around the fringes, good support player, obviously he's young and has a long way to go but he's got all the skills

Yep he is certainly a player to watch and obviously well known by leinster underage setup.

As you said a long way to go but it's encouraging, hopefully he can build on his current skillset and be a truly notable skilled player when he comes out of school.

think it's an area where irish rugby have struggled, producing notably skilled players.. especially at 9.

[hugonaut]

He's got a bullet pass, good kicking game, including being a very handy place kicker, threat around the fringes, good support player, obviously he's young and has a long way to go but he's got all the skills

Yep he is certainly a player to watch and obviously well known by leinster underage setup.

As you said a long way to go but it's encouraging, hopefully he can build on his current skillset and be a truly notable skilled player when he comes out of school.

think it's an area where irish rugby have struggled, producing notably skilled players.. especially at 9.

I think we're getting there, MI. I remember thinking in 2018 that Ireland had never been better served at scrumhalf - Murray at Munster, Cooney at Ulster, Marmion at Connacht, McGrath at Leinster. Murray was clearly the jewel in the crown that year, but Marmion started a win against the All Blacks, Cooney had an amazing season with Ulster, scooping all three [players', writers' and fans' Player of the Year] and McGrath won the double with Leinster.

Bad form and bad selection saw it fall apart in 2019 unfortunately.

[mildlyinterested]

All four of them being in the older bracket 27+

I would say leinster have struggled to identify and develop 9 since McGrath, they obviously invested a lot in McCarthy, who left after failing to push JGP/McGrath for game time and now are left looking around for the next 9.

HOS development or lack there of is obviously a question mark IMO, not playing 9 full time until he left school and then not really getting enough playing meaningful minutes at the position in the AIL until this season.

Not sure what to make of PP.

Cormac Foley seemed to be doing well pre-Xmas, think he got injured and had his season wiped out from there. Again he is another 9 who needs to play the position more.

[Serb]

We’ve really struggled to develop at 9 for a number of years at this point, I don’t recall the mid 2000s so well but would it be right in saying McGrath is the only Leinster developed starting 9 we’ve had since at least 2006?

I think time is on our side on this one though. They’re getting on but McGrath and JGP could still comfortably be our first choice pairing for another 5 or 6 years. If either (or possibly both) are regularly involved with Ireland, there’ll be plenty of game time for the up and coming players to develop there.

[ronk]

McGrath I think is the only successful Irish scrum half in a long time (I’m thinking 15+ years) to come through the conventional pathway at an Irish province. I don’t count Murray because he was behind Matt Healy at U20s and he bolted. Cooney failed at 2 provinces before he fully delivered on his potential. Reddan went to Wasps. Williams and Marshall had serious flaws in their early development. O’Leary was a hurler. Mar ion came through the Welsh system.

It’s pretty shocking. We got through it but why it is so hard to have talented junior scrumhalves who develop rather than fail and bounce back.

[mildlyinterested]

Ah i'd have to consider Murray as someone who came through a conventional pathway.

IMO it comes down to many players not having good enough skills in their basics and then some of those who do(Cooney) not getting enough game time to develop at their home province. A lot of it comes down to coaching, 9 is such a specialist position I'd almost think you'd have to have an ex-9 somewhere in coaching setup.

McGrath was long flagged as the great hope at 9 and for some his pass is still not good enough for the top level.

[mildlyinterested]

Older scrumhalves from leinster system:

Ciaran Scally(1978/Blackrock)
Brian O'Riordan(1981/Gonzaga)
Ruairi Cushion(1983/St. Michaels)
Cillian Willis(1985/Blackrock)
Paul O'Donoghue(1987/Belvedere)
Matt Healy(1989/Gonzaga)

Am I missing anyone notable?

[mildlyinterested]

Another fun what if... Ian Madigan being tried at 9 when he was 20 or so..

[ronk]

Ah i'd have to consider Murray as someone who came through a conventional pathway.

IMO it comes down to many players not having good enough skills in their basics and then some of those who do(Cooney) not getting enough game time to develop at their home province. A lot of it comes down to coaching, 9 is such a specialist position I'd almost think you'd have to have an ex-9 somewhere in coaching setup.

McGrath was long flagged as the great hope at 9 and for some his pass is still not good enough for the top level.

I hadn’t heard any buzz around Murray until all of a sudden he had a great game for Munster against Australia. He was way down the pecking order and he got a shot later in the season through injuries. Cooney looked great as a young player but just couldn’t get the chances. As soon as someone picked him consistently, he was amazing. Both players were overnight successes. That isn’t supposed to happen in a functioning development pathway: if a player gets unexpected chances through circumstance and turns out to be an elite player then it’s a failing of talent recognition.

Add in Reddan and it’s 3 players who were missed in some way or other versus one, just one, who was identified as a future international and became one. Even at that McGrath has underwhelmed a little compared to the high expectations of his talent at u20s.

[mildlyinterested]

I wonder if Leinster will approach Michael McDonald in Australia...

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I hadn’t heard any buzz around Murray until all of a sudden he had a great game for Munster against Australia. He was way down the pecking order and he got a shot later in the season through injuries. Cooney looked great as a young player but just couldn’t get the chances. As soon as someone picked him consistently, he was amazing. Both players were overnight successes. That isn’t supposed to happen in a functioning development pathway: if a player gets unexpected chances through circumstance and turns out to be an elite player then it’s a failing of talent recognition.

Add in Reddan and it’s 3 players who were missed in some way or other versus one, just one, who was identified as a future international and became one. Even at that McGrath has underwhelmed a little compared to the high expectations of his talent at u20s.

Murray started for the 20's and I remember this because I thought he was rubbish at the time and thought he was only there because nobody else could kick.

Despite Stringer and TOL being there (plus a young Duncan Williams) he was able to push into the side and make the World Cup squad in 2011 when he was only 22.

It's pretty much a perfect route I'd say.

[Dave Cahill]

There was a lot of buzz around Murray, I know lads who are Cookies and they'd been raving about him since he was 16

[curates_egg]

Cooney failed at 2 provinces before he fully delivered on his potential.

This false narrative around Cooney really bothers me.
He did not fail at Leinster: he was on a steady development path until MOC came along.
It’s also unfair to describe his time in Connacht as a failure by him: he had serious injury problems.

I’m totally on the other end of the spectrum to Dave Cahill on this: I have been a big fan since watching him at u18s. I have no doubt he would be a central player for Leinster if MOC hadn’t happened. I also believe the consistent mismanagement of him has been to Ireland’s detriment.

There are three players with C that I regret losing, but he is the only one where the blame lies exclusively with Leinster.

[hugonaut]

Older scrumhalves from leinster system:

Ciaran Scally(1978/Blackrock)
Brian O'Riordan(1981/Gonzaga)
Ruairi Cushion(1983/St. Michaels)
Cillian Willis(1985/Blackrock)
Paul O'Donoghue(1987/Belvedere)
Matt Healy(1989/Gonzaga)

Am I missing anyone notable?

Think you've covered the major cases there.

I won't be the first to say it, but this would be a completely different conversation if Ciaran Scally's career hadn't been ended so early by injury; he had to retire at 20 and had already won four caps [source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/injury ... e-1.230588]. If you look back at the 1998-99 Irish season here [link: https://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/men/fixtures-results/ ], you'll see that he was in the matchday 22 for every test match that season and then for the tour of Australia that summer as well - 10 out of 10 tests.

You have to remember that tactical substitutions only came into play for the 1996-97 season [link: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/teams- ... ns-1.94757 ], and they were seen back then as a comment on form. You'd only be subbed off if you were playing noticeably badly.

Now, if you're in anyway reasonable, you'd have to have some doubts about projecting a 100-cap career for a 20 year old ... so I have some doubts, but they are really, really small doubts. The guy was a natural: a phenomenon as a schoolboy player, extremely physical for a scrum-half and he had a big personality – a bright guy with a lot of confidence, a lot of charisma and a lot of will power.

When you look at the scrum-halves we sent to RWC99 [a 23 year old Brian O'Meara with 3 caps and a 23 year old Tom Tierney with 4 caps - source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Rugb ... ds#Ireland ], it's obvious that he had a very strong chance of being in that squad, and he was really only playing rugby on one peg. He tore his cruciate against England Schools in April 1997 and was out of the game for six months [source: https://www.independent.ie/sport/scally ... 39257.html ] and when you read the linked articles, it's clear that it was never really right [link: https://www.independent.ie/sport/scally ... 19117.html ].

One of the biggest positive factors of professional rugby and one of the biggest advances [with no drawbacks at all] in the TIP, sub-academy and academy set-ups in this country is the level of medical care, rehabilitation, strength and conditioning, and psychological training that is available to young players. Hand-in-hand with that is the level of genuine interest and care invested in injured players by highly trained professionals on a daily basis. And alongside that is a very clear [if arduous] route to making a living out of playing rugby.

None of that existed even 20 years ago. Some of the best players from the 'Leinster schools conveyor belt' - Scally, Barry Gibney, Eamonn Travers etc. – barely made it to senior rugby at all because they were so injured and burnt out. Sports medicine was a long way from where it is today, surgery was a long way from where it is today, rehabilitation was a long way from where it is today and crucially the structure that puts those elements together, supplies all the parts in between and outlines the route from beginning to end ... well, it didn't even exist.

This is just an opinion, but immodestly, I would say it is an informed opinion: injury-free [not completely injury-free, but with some sort of 'average' list of injuries that a generic pro suffers over the course of a career, i.e. some serious but not career-threatening, others niggling, others innocuous etc. ], Scally would have played in RWC99 as a 20/21 year old [squad scrumhalves: O'Meara and Tierney], RWC03 as a 24/25 year old [squad scrumhalves: Stringer, Easterby and Doak], RWC07 as a 28/29 year old [squad scrumhalves: Stringer, Reddan and Boss] and very likely RWC11 as a 32/33 year old [squad scrumhalves: Reddan, Boss and Murray].

I've a brother who played against Scally and Stringer in school - Scally fairly regularly, Stringer occasionally. I remember talking to him about it once, and to him there was no contest; it was like it hadn't even occurred to them that there could be a contest. Skids was a horrific player to play against, a huge threat throughout the game, and a guy who did damage from everywhere. Always one of the best players on the pitch. Stringer was a guy they only noticed because he was so small and looked so young. Stringer was actually a year older than Scally, but sat behind him on the bench for the Irish Schools in the championship in 1996 and the tour of Australia that summer. He [Scally] scored two tries in the win over Australia Schools at the end of a seven game unbeaten tour.
Again, some of my brother's mate played on that tour, and from their perspective Scally was one of the most influential players on the tour ... and he had another year left to go in school!

Strings ended up winning almost 100 caps for Ireland. He made the absolute most of his abilities, and I've a lot of respect for him. But Scally was a different class. In the world of 'what ifs', with that hypothetical average injury list and allowing for average lapses in form and selection calls, I don't think you'd be far wrong in estimating a career that's a midpoint of the careers of his Blackrock College teammates Leo Cullen [219 Leinster appearances + 32 Irish caps] and Drico [186+133]: say 200-205 Leinster appearances and 80-85 Irish caps.

Normally I steer clear of 'what ifs', because there are so many variables. But there's been no rugby for about three months, and there won't be anymore for another three.

EDIT: Apologies for the absolute essay!

[ronk]

There was a lot of buzz around Murray, I know lads who are Cookies and they'd been raving about him since he was 16

Fair enough. I hadn’t heard that

[ronk]

Cooney failed at 2 provinces before he fully delivered on his potential.

This false narrative around Cooney really bothers me.
He did not fail at Leinster: he was on a steady development path until MOC came along.
It’s also unfair to describe his time in Connacht as a failure by him: he had serious injury problems.

I’m totally on the other end of the spectrum to Dave Cahill on this: I have been a big fan since watching him at u18s. I have no doubt he would be a central player for Leinster if MOC hadn’t happened. I also believe the consistent mismanagement of him has been to Ireland’s detriment.

There are three players with C that I regret losing, but he is the only one where the blame lies exclusively with Leinster.

I remember Cooney at Leinster. I thought he was gonna be a star.

My point is that there has been a lot of failing to develop talent at scrum half. He had injuries at Connacht but he was fit some of the time. He was always good, it wasn’t like he magically raised his game for his last chance. It was just Irish rugby not getting the best out of the best talent in the country. It happens surprisingly often in Ireland.

[hugonaut]

Cooney failed at 2 provinces before he fully delivered on his potential.

This false narrative around Cooney really bothers me.
He did not fail at Leinster: he was on a steady development path until MOC came along.
It’s also unfair to describe his time in Connacht as a failure by him: he had serious injury problems.

I’m totally on the other end of the spectrum to Dave Cahill on this: I have been a big fan since watching him at u18s. I have no doubt he would be a central player for Leinster if MOC hadn’t happened. I also believe the consistent mismanagement of him has been to Ireland’s detriment.

There are three players with C that I regret losing, but he is the only one where the blame lies exclusively with Leinster.

I remember Cooney at Leinster. I thought he was gonna be a star.

My point is that there has been a lot of failing to develop talent at scrum half. He had injuries at Connacht but he was fit some of the time. He was always good, it wasn’t like he magically raised his game for his last chance. It was just Irish rugby not getting the best out of the best talent in the country. It happens surprisingly often in Ireland.

I'd say it happens in every country Ronk. We're just not aware of it to the same extent. Tevita Li played for North Harbour in the 2013 ITM Cup while he was still in school and scored 13 tries in 10 games [two full tournaments] in the JWC in 2014 & 2015. That's still the tournament record. He was twice nominated for Junior World Player of the Year [or whatever it is called]. He hasn't played for New Zealand yet.

Akira Ioane was the best U20 forward I've ever seen - better than Kaino, Heaslip, Etzebeth, Ardie Savea, Itoje, James Ryan ... anyone. He's as talented as any forward I've ever seen, but apparently he has the worst attitude in New Zealand rugby. I think he's got one New Zealand cap, and they haven't had a solid blindside since Kaino retired from test rugby.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Li reminds me of Habana without the footballing ability or rugby brain, not entirely surprised that he didn't kick on. Although don't get me wrong, he was devastating with ball in hand. This might be a bit of a Liam Toland thing to say but Li and Andrew Conway were quite similar at under 20 level and if Li can learn to round out his game like Conway did then he could still go far.

Ioane is a pure 8 for me so don't think the blindside spot is there for the taking but it's a real shame he hasn't developed as he should. You can tell he's not very fit but even then he can just take off or skittle through people when he wants to, reminds me a bit of Caucau's European phase in that respect.

This is obviously a tangent from Leinster business (sure what else have we to talk about?) but Jordan Joseph is the best underage player I've seen. There have been physical freaks like him before but I don't remember anyone who also had his work ethic and nous. It's real men against boys stuff when he plays under 20's (he won the JWPOTY when he was still only 17) but then it was still like that when he played for Racing aged 18. There's been a lot of talk about rugby's past and future recently and loads of people have mentioned that Lomu has been the game's only superstar, I really think Joseph could be the next one.

[Dave Cahill]

Its a bloody tough position to make the breakthrough in, probably the toughest in Irish rugby. Producing top class scrum halves is something we've always found very difficult. Since the game went professional 25 years ago, we've produced precisely one (Murray). The one previous to that was in the late 70s (Patterson). We had a few other good ones (Stringer, Reddan, Boss, O'Leary). We've lost a couple to injury (Scally), but for some reason, one every every 20-30 years is about the ratio.

Because the position is so specialised its very rare to find one that can play another position to a professional level. So theres only room for one on the pitch, one on the bench and you can't pick them in another position like is often done with out halves where you'll often find them picked at 12 or 15, so you are already on the hind foot as regards any kind of gametime.

This, combined with the Irish system, actually mitigates against the development of young scrum halves. International players play the big games. Thats okay for a Jordan Larmour or a Dan Leavy - if there's an incumbent blocking his preferred position, well there's always the wing or the blindside. Scrum halves don't have that option. Come European match weekend, there are four starting slots and four bench slots up for grabs. But there aren't really, because the international players play the big games. So, if the International coach has a preferred duo or trio of scrum halves, then those slots can start to narrow down. Even worse, if a province has two of the international scrum halves (as Munster did around 2009 and Leinster did around 2015) then you don't even really have a shot at the bench. So, in reality, unless you're an absolute prodigy at 21 or 22 and you're part of that privileged national squad cadre, you're better off getting the boat/hitting the motorway for a couple of years like Reddan or Cooney. Now, in my time watching rugby, I can only remember two scrum halves who fit that wunderkind bill - Scally and Murray.