The leinster dream thread (100th edition)

[riocard911]

Nothing to be said for Donal Lenihan? Or even Moss Keane? Willie john? Far too short for the modern game but a colossus in his day.

I was actually at WJMcB's last home game for Ireland. I was a kid standing beside Eamonn Andrews when he brought out his big red book and did "this is your life" to him.

I wonder is there footage of it somewhere? I remember him in a big camel coloured crombie with a mike and his book and a a thick coating of make up.

Eamonn Andrews that is not willie john.

Great post. I was there too and had totally forgotten Eamonn Andrews' "surprise" appearance.

[johng]

I just missed Kevin Flynn but is there no place for Mike Gibson RTB? Unbelievable player. Held the Irish cap record until big mal passed him many years later iirc

[cormac]

I just missed Kevin Flynn but is there no place for Mike Gibson RTB? Unbelievable player. Held the Irish cap record until big mal passed him many years later iirc

That Mike Gibson was an Ulster player.

[johng]

I probably noticed that we were talking Leinster not Ireland...

Edit: Probably SHOULD HAVE noticed.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Bit rich the spell checker assuming the name of a well-known North Dublin ale house is somehow rude and deserving of censure.... Trigger warning! Won't someone think of the children?!!!!

Probably picked up on that it’s a Northside establishment rather than the name?

[johng]

Howth Sutton and Clontarf don't count as the northside. They have been traded for parts of west dublin on the sly a few decades ago.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Howth Sutton and Clontarf don't count as the northside. They have been traded for parts of west dublin on the sly a few decades ago.

what did we get in exchange?

[riocard911]

Howth Sutton and Clontarf don't count as the northside. They have been traded for parts of west dublin on the sly a few decades ago.

Gerrourrovihh!!!!

[Ruckedtobits]

As I said above, trying to distill the memories and seperate them from the statistical records makes an exercise like this daunting. So, I'm initially selecting two teams of Leinster 'Greats'. Team A is based on those who played 1950 - 1995 and Team B is based on those who played in the professional era 1995-2020. Professional sport is a lifetime away from amateur sport, in any code, and performances are never directly comparable. However, excellence and competitiveness are skills and attributes that make every player great in his own era. Accordingly, I am going to base my selection of Team A on the individual's excellence in his position and as a contributor to his team in the time in which he played. When I come to select an overall team, if I can, I will try to figure out by what criteria I make the compromises.

Team A 1950-1995

Full-back: Hugo MacNeill:----- Leinster, Ireland 1981-8 (37 caps, 10 Tries) & Lions (3 Tests) NZ 1993
Right Wing: Tony O'Reilly:----- Leinster, Ireland 1955-70 (29 caps, 4 Tries) & Lions (10 Tests) S Africa1955 & N Z 1959, 38 tries (record)
Centre: Brendan Mullin:------- Leinster. Ireland 1984-95 (55 caps, 17 Tries) & Lions (2 Tests) Aus 1989
Centre: Kevin Flynn:----------- Leinster, Ireland (1959-73) (22 caps, 5 tries)
Left Wing: Niall Brophy:------- Leinster, Ireland (1957-67, 22 caps, 5 tries) & Lions NZ 1959 & SA (2 caps) 1962
Out-half: Ollie Campbell:----- Leinster, Ireland (1976-84, 22 caps, 217 pts) & Lions SA 1980 (3 caps) & NZ 1993 (4 caps) 184 pts
Scrum-half: John Maloney:--- Leinster, Ireland, Capt (1972-80, 27 caps, 4 tries) & Lions SA 1974

L-H Prop: Nick Popplewell:---- Leinster, Ireland (1989-98, 48 caps) & Lions NZ 1993 (3 caps)
Hooker: Ronnie Dawson:------- Leinster, Ireland, Capt, (1958-64, 27 caps) & Lions, Capt, NZ 1959 (6 caps)
T-H Prop: Sean Lynch:---------- Leinster, Ireland, (1971-75, 17 caps) & Lions, NZ 1971 (4 caps)
Second-row: Bill Mulcahy:----- Leinster, Ireland, (1958-65, 35 caps) & Lions, NZ 1959 (2 caps) & SA 1962 (4 caps)
Second-row: Neil Francis:----- Leinster, Ireland, (1987-96, 36 caps, 4 tries)
Blindside : Ronnie Kavanagh:- Leinster, Ireland, (1953-62, 35 caps, 4 tries) 'One of the greatest of all forwards', ESPN Rugby 2011
Openside : Fergus Slattery:--- Leinster, Ireland, Capt (1970-84, 61 caps, 3 tries) & Lions NZ 1971, SA 1974 (4 caps)
No 8: Willie Duggan:------------ Leinster, Ireland, (1975-84, 41 caps, 2 tries), & Lions NZ 1977 (4 caps, 1 try)

I'll get Team B together after a decent lunch and bottle of wine, More courage required

Fitness and Playing Intensity

Previously I briefly referred to the difference between the amateur and professional eras. In arriving at my selections I was constantly struck by these anamolies and what impacts they had on the careers of the various players from different eras. The two most fundamental factors in my view are the level of fitness (both injury & athletic capacity) and the intensity of the respective playing careers (i.e. the number of top-class games in a season).

Consider the career of the majority of those listed in Team A. Playing in Leinster club rugby, they may have had a maximum of 10 significant games spread over a season lasting from 1st September until the end of April (possibly 30 weekends in 34 weeks). The staples were three Interprovincial games in the pre-Christmas period, a Final Trial game usually over the New Year period and then four 5-Nations games from mid-January until the last week in March. The sole 'competitive' Club games were the Provincial Cups which commenced no earlier than the week after St Patrick's Day, or Easter Sunday, and were completed by the last week of April. However as they were played as a knock-out competition in each Province, a player might have had only one competitive Club game in a Season. In an International Tour year, there would have been two additional games, a Provincial mid-week fixture against the Tourists plus an international game three or four days later. Such games were regularly played in December for Leinster and thus the entire focus of the Season for those players was early or mid-December to mid-March, 10 games played over 18 weeks. Neither Provincial or National Teams trained together until the day before the match and until c. 1969, no Coach was present and players did all the preparation together. Fitness tests were very rare and usually only because a Chairman of Selectors had a cap in his pocket with a name already stitched on.

National Tours to the Southern Hemisphere nations were very rare but there were usually three Lions Tours per decade, e.g. NZ in 1950, SA in 1955 & NZ & Aus in 1959. These were marathon affairs with approximately 30 games over a four-month period spent in each country. From the 1950's, the Tourists were supplied with a fitness trainer, a physiotherapist and a Doctor by the visiting Union but these were only 'consultative' posts to deal with injuries rather than full-time additions for the Tour party.

The vast majority of the most talented players of the amateur era suffered chronic injuries, particularly the backline players. O'Reilly, Flynn, Brophy and Campbell were all regularly unavailable because of back or leg injuries. Others suffered from knee and shoulder injuries in an era before surgerical intervention was sophisticated or targeted at recovery from sports injuries. Keyhole survery had not arrived and a knee-cartilege injury or a shoulder dislocation could be career ending, or at best lead to a chronic injury-riddled career.

It is my contention that, in general, the vast majority of Leinster's great post-war players burst onto the scene from School's rugby and displayed dazzling talents for 3-5 years before succumbing to chronic injuries that both deprived them of game time and shortened their careers at the top level. AJF (Tony) O'Reilly is a prime example and his progression from star schoolboy to Lions stand-out saw the 17 year-old's Belvedere College lose the Leinster Senior Schools final of 1954 to Blackrock College (with Niall Brophy starring for 'Rock) to scoring 16 tries in 15 games for the 1955 B&I Lions a year later in South Africa, just past his 19th birthday. Four years later, the 23 year-old O'Reilly had an even greater impact in New Zealand & Australia scoring 22 tries in 23 games, including tries in four of the six test matches. O'Reilly also scored 38 tries for the Barbarians in 30 games up to 1963. However, by as early as 1961 he suffered from chronic back and hamstring injuries and many of his contemporaries contend he was rarely fit enough to play for Ireland after 1961. O'Reilly's last cap for Ireland in 1970 was a tragedy and travesty in execution and has been the subject of much examination. However, an entire generation of players and selectors were sufficiently convinced of his outstanding skill, power and pace, when at best, that high hopes were still entertained in Twickenham in 1970 that he could rescue the day. In an era in which rugby as a sport had minimal coverage nationally or internationally, O'Reilly's impact on the game was perhaps only matched by the adulation garnered by Jonah Lomu forty years later at the 1995 World Cup in South Africa.

Kevin Flynn also exploded onto the international scene almost directly from schools rugby as a 19 year-old and debuted with a try and a win against France in 1959 alongside O'Reilly and Brophy on the wings. However between that date and his final game 14 years later when Ireland drew with New Zealand 10-10 in 1973, where Flynn and Mike Gibson played centres, he only earned 22 caps and was never selected for the Lions, despite, it has always been rumoured, receiving early-season availability requests re Tours in 1962 (SA), 1966 (NZ), 1968 (SA) and possibly even 1971 (NZ). Ireland played 55 games in the period between his debut and retirement.

During that era (1950's, 60's & 70's) only Jack Kyle, Ronnie Kavanagh, Tom Kiernan, Bill McBride, Mike Gibson and Fergus Slattery were constantly available for selection for Ireland. Kavanagh , Gibson and Slattery in particular were reknowned for the diligence they devoted to their physical preparation. Had these generations of players had the training and physical care of the modern generation of players, Ireland would have had much better results during this era. We did not have the depth to replace our best when injured. The English, Welsh and French did, but not the Scots or Irish. I consider that our success in the Professional era owes an enormous amount to the quality of our physical preparation and fitness which, in the period since Cheika with Jason Cowman, has allowed countless Leinster & Irish players to have long and successful careers, unlike their predecessors.

Team B - 1995-2020

So, having got that little introduction out of the way, I now offer my selection for Leinster XV of the professional era. I have documented the playing acheivements of each for direct comparison with the earlier era.

Full-back:----------Robert Kearney:-----Leinster 2005- (216 caps, 238 pts), Ireland 2007- (95 caps, 82 pts), & Lions (3 Tests,1 try) S Africa 2009, Aus 2013
Right Wing:--------Shane Horgan:-------Leinster, 1998-2011 (203 caps, 348 pts), Ireland 2000-9 (65 caps, 21 Tries) & Lions (4 Tests) NZ 2005
Centre:-------------Brian O'Driscoll:-----Leinster, Capt, 1999-2014 (196 caps, 311 pts), Ireland Capt, 1999-2014 (133 caps, 46 tries) & Lions (3) Aus 2001, NZ '05 (1), SA '09 (2), Aus '13 (2)
Centre:-------------Gordon D'Arcy:------Leinster, 1998-2015 (260 caps, 339 pts), Ireland 1999-15 (82 caps, 7 Tries) & Lions (1 Tests) NZ 2005, SA 2009
Left Wing:---------Isa Nacewa:----------Leinster, 2008-2018 (ex-2016-17), Capt,(183 caps, 706 pts), Fiji (1 cap) 2003 & Auckland / Blues 2003-8
Out-half:----------Jonathon Sexton:----Leinster, 2006 - (ex 2013-15) (163 caps, 1,469 pts), Ireland 2009 - (91 caps, 814 pts) & Lions Aus 2013 (3 Tests, 1 try) NZ 2017 (3 Tests)
Scrum-half:-------Eoin Reddan:---------Leinster, 2009-16 (140 caps, 30 pts), Ireland 2006-16 (71 caps, 2 Tries) & Connacht 2001-3, Munster 2003-5, Wasps 2005-9

L-H Prop:----------Cian Healy:-----------Leinster, 2007- (216 caps, 120 pts), Ireland 2009- (98 caps, 5 Tries) & Lions, Aus 2013
Hooker:------------Shane Byrne:---------Leinster, 1995-2005 (140 caps, 15 pts), Ireland 2001-5 (41 caps, 3 Tries) & Lions (4 Tests) NZ 2005, Saracens 2005-7
T-H Prop:----------Tadgh Furlong:-------Leinster, 2013- (108 caps, 35 pts), Ireland 2015- (44 caps, 5 Tries) & Lions (3 Tests) NZ 2017
Second-row:------James Ryan:----------Leinster, 2017- (27 caps, 10 pts), Ireland 201 (26 caps, 3 Tries)
Second-row:------Malcolm O'Kelly:-----Leinster, 1995-2010 (ex-1998-2000) (183 caps, 55 pts), Ireland 1997-08 (92 caps, 8 Tries) & Lions Aus 2001 & NZ 2005,
Blindside :--------Rocky Elsom:----------Leinster, 2009 (20 caps, 30 pts), Australia Capt 2005-11 (75 caps, 14 Tries), Waratahs, Brumbies, Toulon 2005-12
Openside :--------Sean O'Brien:---------Leinster, 2008-2019 (126 caps, 100 pts), Ireland 2009-19 (56 caps, 6 Tries) & Lions Aus 2013 (2 Tests), NZ 2017(3 Tests, 1 try)
No 8:--------------Jamie Heaslip:--------Leinster, 2005-2018 (229 caps, 190 pts), Ireland 2006-17 (95 caps, 13 Tries) & Lions SA 2009 (3 Tests) Aus 2013 (2 Tests)

This team required a lot more consideration that I had thought at the outset. However, ultimately I had reservations about only two positions, those of Hooker and Blind-side flanker. Rocky Elsom's inclusion caused me serious consideration as his contribution was for only one season. However, his performances throughout that season resulted in our acquisition of our first Heineken Cup aned a Croke Park defeat of Munster which for me will be forever the most significant ever Leinster victory. That Elsom won 13 MOTM awards during his 21 games and was named European Player of the Year in 2008-9 and was selected on the European Dream Team for the first 15 years of the Competition at least confirmed his incredibile impact on our rugby.

Shane Byrne was not the natural front-runner for the Hooker spot. But none of Cronin, Strauss, Jackman or Fogarty ever inspired total confidence with throwing at critical times in the game. Byrne also went with the Lions to NZ in 2005 and despite the presence of big-name competitors, he grabbed the Test-match selections in the toughest environment in World Rugby.

There were other close-run selections including wingers, and each row of the forwards. However, I am satisfied that those selected are worthy of their places, although I acknowledge that others may differ in their opinions.

My final post on this topic will be my overall selection of The Greatest Leinster Team 1950-2020. Once again I must indulge my appetite and thirst before I conclude that selection.

[neiliog93]

Can only remember watching from late '90s/early '00s, so here's my team based on ability, not considering leadership (sorry Leo):

1.Healy 2.R.Strauss 3.Furlong

4.O'Kelly 5.Ja.Ryan

6.Elsom 8.Heaslip 7.SOB

9.Reddan 10.Sexton 12.D'Arcy 13.O'Driscoll 14.Horgan

11.Nacewa 15.R.Kearney

16.S.Cronin 17.J.McGrath 18.Ross 19.Hines 20.Gleeson 21.Boss 22.Contepomi 23.Hickie/Fitgerald

[Degz]

We've not really produced a nine of any substance in a long long time.

[johng]

Tears rolling down Luke McGrath's little face currently over his alleged lack of substance

[Degz]

I'm sure he's absolutely devastated alright.

Think of all the other positions where we've had, in the last 10-15 years, actual world class talent (bar hooker, I'd guess). Our last lion at nine was John Robbie was it?

I guess we were robbed of Ciaran Scally

[johng]

Ireland hasn't produced too many in general. Bar Murray.

TOL was selected in 09 iirc but missed out through pre tour injury.

Stringer never made it afaik.

So no province produced one since John Robbie (40 years ago) with the exception of Conor Murray.

[JB1973]

I probably noticed that we were talking Leinster not Ireland...

Edit: Probably SHOULD HAVE noticed.

you certainly should have , seeing as I was appd you the same question on the weekend

[JB1973]

Loving the info on all the older players, slattery is with out a doubt a real legend of the british and irish game, o'reily (no doubt his business career helped his profile) to but the others are not so well known

I watched some highlights of the 89 tour to oz over the weekend, my old fave mullins was top try scorer and played in the first test he was a top player , I'd forgotten how quick he was . He must be the 4th best centre Ireland produced outside of bod,gibson and darcy

[Degz]

Ireland hasn't produced too many in general. Bar Murray.

TOL was selected in 09 iirc but missed out through pre tour injury.

Stringer never made it afaik.

So no province produced one since John Robbie (40 years ago) with the exception of Conor Murray.

Well it's a Leinster thread (as you've twigged!), so was concentrating on us only, but yes, the problem can be expanded to the whole island.

Arguably, the best Leinster born scrum half of the last fifty years played for England. Toured with the Lions too.

[FLIP]

Ireland hasn't produced too many in general. Bar Murray.

TOL was selected in 09 iirc but missed out through pre tour injury.

Stringer never made it afaik.

So no province produced one since John Robbie (40 years ago) with the exception of Conor Murray.

Well it's a Leinster thread (as you've twigged!), so was concentrating on us only, but yes, the problem can be expanded to the whole island.

Arguably, the best Leinster born scrum half of the last fifty years played for England. Toured with the Lions too.

Kyran Bracken?

[Degz]

Ireland hasn't produced too many in general. Bar Murray.

TOL was selected in 09 iirc but missed out through pre tour injury.

Stringer never made it afaik.

So no province produced one since John Robbie (40 years ago) with the exception of Conor Murray.

Well it's a Leinster thread (as you've twigged!), so was concentrating on us only, but yes, the problem can be expanded to the whole island.

Arguably, the best Leinster born scrum half of the last fifty years played for England. Toured with the Lions too.

Kyran Bracken?

Indeed. 50 odd caps and called up as cover on the 97 tour for Rob Howley. No test appearances though.

[Ruckedtobits]

Loving the info on all the older players, slattery is with out a doubt a real legend of the british and irish game, o'reily (no doubt his business career helped his profile) to but the others are not so well known

I watched some highlights of the 89 tour to oz over the weekend, my old fave mullins was top try scorer and played in the first test he was a top player , I'd forgotten how quick he was . He must be the 4th best centre Ireland produced outside of bod,gibson and darcy

Actually, for O'Reilly (or AJF as he was known) his Lions exploits in '55 & '59, as a real youngster, assisted his business career rather than vice versa. O'Reilly was a phenom of his time, multiple sports, strong academically, tall & good looking and a remarkable raconteur.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_O%27Reilly

He married an heiress from Oz and they had one child, twins and then triplets and the Aussie media remarked that "he had children like he scored tries in Test matches, one, then two, then three". At age 24 he was appointed GM of Bord Bainne and led the first ever Irish food marketing drive with Kerrygold butter which was sold in 50 countries, before he was head-hunted as CEO of US-based Heinz Corp before he was 30.