Pro14 R4: Zebre v Leinster Sat 26th Oct 17:15 KO

[Oldschool]

Sexton to start or on the bench, it's a fair question.

Who do you start ahead of Sexton?

Cos it ain't Ross Byrne based on that performance.

Using your criteria (most recent performance) then it ain't Sexton either.

[Jonny tight lips]

Sexton to start or on the bench, it's a fair question.

Who do you start ahead of Sexton?

Cos it ain't Ross Byrne based on that performance.

We’re never gonna win a European Cup with Ross our starting ten, once it became clear we couldn’t keep him and Joey leocaster should of bundled him into a car and driven him to Belfast Limerick or Disneyland if necessary.

Harsh but with sextons age Everything should of been done to keep Joey.

[wixfjord]

Sexton to start or on the bench, it's a fair question.

Who do you start ahead of Sexton?

Cos it ain't Ross Byrne based on that performance.

Using your criteria (most recent performance) then it ain't Sexton either.

I'd say NZ in a RWC QF is slightly different to Zebre away in the Pro14.

Who would you start then? Harry Byrne? Ciaran Frawley?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

We’re never gonna win a European Cup with Ross our starting ten, once it became clear we couldn’t keep him and Joey leocaster should of bundled him into a car and driven him to Belfast Limerick or Disneyland if necessary.

Harsh but with sextons age Everything should of been done to keep Joey.

I really don't get the lack of love for Ross. He was shite on Saturday but by and large he's been great for us. I feel like people think he lacks a threat and holds us back because of his lack of pace without it ever really being a problem. He's got a big game mentality and his crossfield kicks and kicks to touch really are world class. My biggest criticism would be that he tends to cramp up a lot quite early on in games. Not sure what would cause that tbh, maybe it's his fault or maybe it isn't, but either way it's a problem.

Maybe we'll have to help him in the way that Ireland didn't help Johnny this year as he lost his pace by getting a second playmaker on the field at times, but he's still a fine player in his own right.

[Pilotman123]

Are we talking about who we think should start 10 in the Lyon game or in the near future ?

[Jonny tight lips]

We’re never gonna win a European Cup with Ross our starting ten, once it became clear we couldn’t keep him and Joey leocaster should of bundled him into a car and driven him to Belfast Limerick or Disneyland if necessary.

Harsh but with sextons age Everything should of been done to keep Joey.

I really don't get the lack of love for Ross. He was shite on Saturday but by and large he's been great for us. I feel like people think he lacks a threat and holds us back because of his lack of pace without it ever really being a problem. He's got a big game mentality and his crossfield kicks and kicks to touch really are world class. My biggest criticism would be that he tends to cramp up a lot quite early on in games. Not sure what would cause that tbh, maybe it's his fault or maybe it isn't, but either way it's a problem.

Maybe we'll have to help him in the way that Ireland didn't help Johnny this year as he lost his pace by getting a second playmaker on the field at times, but he's still a fine player in his own right.

It’s nothing to do with Saturday, It’s to do with the fact that I think Joey is a better player but don’t take my word for it Joe and Leocaster think the same (Joey benched for the 2018 final). Given Sextons age I think we should of done everything possible to keep the better player and if that meant putting pressure on Ross to move on, so be it.

Going forward there is a lesson to be learnt, if we don’t decide who we let go the decision could be taken out of our hands.

[desperado]

Forget Joey.
I'll tell you what though; I'd start Harry at home to the Dragons. Nothing to do with anything other getting him increased level of testing. Ross is solid; and is a big game player etc. but Harry has a higher ceiling and more in his armoury. He should be tested at increasing levels of competition; and not just when games are already won.

[ronk]

Munster wanted Carbery regardless of whether Ross stayed. They need their semi win.

Carbery may not have liked competing with Byrne but he would have been behind Sexton anyway so there's no guarantee he would have wanted to stay. Schmidt wanted Carbery to be a starter. Byrne leaving wouldnt have solved those issues.

The choice was Sexton or Carbery in the end and we didnt really have a choice.

[Jonny tight lips]

Munster wanted Carbery regardless of whether Ross stayed. They need their semi win.

Carbery may not have liked competing with Byrne but he would have been behind Sexton anyway so there's no guarantee he would have wanted to stay. Schmidt wanted Carbery to be a starter. Byrne leaving wouldnt have solved those issues.

The choice was Sexton or Carbery in the end and we didnt really have a choice.

It was reported that joe rocked up on the eve of the semi and said he wanted one of the lads to move on, if leinster had acted decisively and told Ross he was moving on and reported that back to Joe that would of been that. They couldn’t of cone back to us to get Joey as firstly he would of been only one of two senior 10s at the province and secondly we would of played ball with them.

I don’t think Ross is a bad player, I want to reiterate that but I do think Joey is Better and if we had handled the situation differently we would have a stronger squad.

[Dave Cahill]

Yeah but it turns out that Joe didn't know his arse from his elbow.

[Twist]

We’re never gonna win a European Cup with Ross our starting ten, once it became clear we couldn’t keep him and Joey leocaster should of bundled him into a car and driven him to Belfast Limerick or Disneyland if necessary.

Harsh but with sextons age Everything should of been done to keep Joey.

I really don't get the lack of love for Ross. He was shite on Saturday but by and large he's been great for us. I feel like people think he lacks a threat and holds us back because of his lack of pace without it ever really being a problem. He's got a big game mentality and his crossfield kicks and kicks to touch really are world class. My biggest criticism would be that he tends to cramp up a lot quite early on in games. Not sure what would cause that tbh, maybe it's his fault or maybe it isn't, but either way it's a problem.

Maybe we'll have to help him in the way that Ireland didn't help Johnny this year as he lost his pace by getting a second playmaker on the field at times, but he's still a fine player in his own right.

Who would that second playmaker be?


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[Xanthippe]

We’re never gonna win a European Cup with Ross our starting ten, once it became clear we couldn’t keep him and Joey leocaster should of bundled him into a car and driven him to Belfast Limerick or Disneyland if necessary.

Harsh but with sextons age Everything should of been done to keep Joey.

I really don't get the lack of love for Ross. He was shite on Saturday but by and large he's been great for us. I feel like people think he lacks a threat and holds us back because of his lack of pace without it ever really being a problem. He's got a big game mentality and his crossfield kicks and kicks to touch really are world class. My biggest criticism would be that he tends to cramp up a lot quite early on in games. Not sure what would cause that tbh, maybe it's his fault or maybe it isn't, but either way it's a problem.

Maybe we'll have to help him in the way that Ireland didn't help Johnny this year as he lost his pace by getting a second playmaker on the field at times, but he's still a fine player in his own right.

Who would that second playmaker be?


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Harry - I’d love to see him at 12 or 15 to see what sort of magic they could produce together. Having grown up playing with and off each other they would surely have an almost telepathic knowledge of each other’s play

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Frawley and JOB were the two I was thinking of. If Johnny gets injured then Frawley could find himself benching in a CC game and the option would be there to move him to 15. Rob will surely retire at the end of the season so that opens up a spot for next season and both of them could see game time there. You never know, maybe Henshaw will move back to fullback and then there's space at 12 as well.

[Jonny tight lips]

I don’t see this fascination at getting a different type of player at fullback, we have Larmour to slot in there and it looks like Keenan is coming alone nicely as the next man up. Messing around Barrett did New Zealand no good

[curates_egg]

Yeah but it turns out that Joe didn't know his arse from his elbow.

Having seen how Carbery has 'evolved' at Munster, and how that worked out for our world cup. I would have to admit that you were right all along. Lancullen were on to a good thing by developing him as a second playmaker at 15, without second-guessing his future.

Having spent a large part of the last 18 months moaning about the manner in which Joecifora forced that on us (and I remain convinced it was bad for Irish rugby), I think this forum needs to move on. He's gone and, anyway, he's injured too much.
We clearly have lots of other talented players who can/could be future Heineken Cup winning playmakers for us.
One thing I am taking out of this sorry episode, is that I have a lot of trust in Lancullen to figure out how best to do it. I hope the IRFU has learned its lesson, and doesn't interfere too much.

[the spoofer]

Joey Carbery is Sean O'Brien esque in the amount of rugby he actually plays.

Ross has suffered a loss of confidence after not making the WC squad. He's a fine player and I'd have no problem with him starting big HC games as long as he rediscovers his form.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I don’t see this fascination at getting a different type of player at fullback, we have Larmour to slot in there and it looks like Keenan is coming alone nicely as the next man up. Messing around Barrett did New Zealand no good

It worked pretty well for them when they won the last World Cup.

[Twist]

Joey Carbery is Sean O'Brien esque in the amount of rugby he actually plays.

Ross has suffered a loss of confidence after not making the WC squad. He's a fine player and I'd have no problem with him starting big HC games as long as he rediscovers his form.

Gerry Thornley often says - and I think he's right - that all European Cup winning teams have a great outhalf. Farrell, Sexton and Wilkinson have won every title this decade between them. (Beyond that you get the occasional Skrela but broadly the trend holds). The other Irish winners were ROG and Humphreys. Is Ross going to be at that level? And soon? I'm not saying he isn't by the way, Im just asking. I don't think the answer can be an emphatic yes.

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this but since the thread is kinda gone this way; what will Hawkshaw's position and role be?

[riocard911]

Joey Carbery is Sean O'Brien esque in the amount of rugby he actually plays.

Ross has suffered a loss of confidence after not making the WC squad. He's a fine player and I'd have no problem with him starting big HC games as long as he rediscovers his form.

Gerry Thornley often says - and I think he's right - that all European Cup winning teams have a great outhalf. Farrell, Sexton and Wilkinson have won every title this decade between them. (Beyond that you get the occasional Skrela but broadly the trend holds). The other Irish winners were ROG and Humphreys. Is Ross going to be at that level? And soon? I'm not saying he isn't by the way, Im just asking. I don't think the answer can be an emphatic yes.

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this but since the thread is kinda gone this way; what will Hawkshaw's position and role be?

Good question. With the Belvo SCT he was the all-conquering 10, later with the u20s they had him playing at 12 beside Harry Byrne at outhalf, which seemed to go well.

[backrower8]

Mate we've all seen enough of your posts here to know where your heavy bias lies, so I'll take all of that with a large dollop of salt thanks.

Deegan was poor. Doris was better when he came on and far more aggresive. That's it really.

No pal, that's not it really. Once again, Doris was better than Deegan last Saturday (see, we agree on your main point and have done since the start) but post-match criticism of Deegan on this forum, relative to the whole team, was OTT. It's probably reflective of the fact that we expect more from him based on his very strong season last season.

I am critical of anyone I see playing badly. You are so one-eyed in your ripostes that you wouldn't recognise me being critical of Moikels goys if it blew up in your keyboard.

As I sad already, but you missed, I was equally critical of the pack and half backs last Saturday, with the exception of Molony (& Fardy). That means I am being critical of 4 out of 5 Moikels goys. Let that sink in before you reply, incorrectly, again. I am also calling for Doris to play at 6 ahead of Josh Murphy, an underrated player AND a Moikels goy.

For the record:

- Of course I enjoy the unprecedented and newfound success of so many players coming from Moikels. No school has ever had such numbers of players on the books of a pro team in Ireland, and this from a school half the size of Belvo and Rock that underachieved for the first 30 years it played JCT/SCT. But that doesn't mean I would pick a team of 15 Moikels goys given the chance. If there was a full squad to choose from for the Heineken Cup 1st round this year and everyone is on form, the Moikels goys I would select would be Ryan, Leavy, McGrath (all starting) with Ross Byrne & probably ROL on the bench.

That's 5 out of the 16 on the books that have been capped by Leinster. Not 16 out of 16 and there are 11 Moikels goys I would not select - so go figure with your comments as regards bias. We all have a level of bias, mine is well in check. What I am guilty of is repeatedly pointing that success out. I have dialled that back a fair bit of late but I appreciate that you and others may still be scarred by the experience.

Of the 16, those that I think have strong potential to play for Ireland at least 10 times (in addition to Ryan, Leavy & McGrath) are Deegan, Baird, Penney and Harry Byrne. Harry is the one I feel surest of. Ronan Kelleher might also, but currently I see more potential in Dan Sheehan (not a Moikels goy).

- Finally, as I have said elsewhere, but you have missed/ignored, I think that Leinster rugby is waaaaayyy too dependent on Moikels for the health of the province/club. I also think Moikels are overinvested in rugby for the balance of the school.

You might read the points above again and digest them before diving in with your incorrect commentary.

If you ever want to actually discuss the merits of Doris and Deegan, the positions they are best suited to and how we might keep both of them, then I will be here for that.