Leinster Preseason 19-20

[LeRouxIsPHat]

COB would be an option there also.

Given that the coaches were willing to put Noel there after years of not playing that role I'd say they're very much open to something like that.

I could see JGP making a decent fist of ten if necessary too.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Will be pretty interesting to see who we play at 15 in the Treviso game now.

Possibly between Kelleher and JOB?

Still lots of options in the back three actually even with the injuries and Kearney and Larmour being in Japan.

Kelleher, JOB, DK, J-Lo, Adam Byrne, Ferg...pretty impressive.

[arsebiscuits1]

COB would be an option there also.

hasn't played 10 since he was u18.

So he really isn't.

Lol Joey hasn't played 9 since he was u18 either but is in Japan potentially covering it

Wouldn't fancy COB at 10 myself though

[hugonaut]

Will be pretty interesting to see who we play at 15 in the Treviso game now.

Possibly between Kelleher and JOB?

I think you're dead right, and the spot is up for grabs - short term and long term. In the medium term [season long] RK will be back after RWC.

We have been blessed to have been served for two decades by two classic, dyed-in-the-wool fullbacks: Girv [13 pro seasons, 173 Leinster appearances, 82 Irish caps] and Rob [14+ pro seasons, 210+ Leinster appearances, 92+ Irish caps]. We've had a great couple of cameos in the interim from Isa and Joey Carbery.

However, Hansen with NZ and Damien McKenzie/Beauden Barett/Richie Mo'unga, and Mark McCall with Saracens and Owen Farrell/Alex Goode/Alex Lozowski are leading the way into the future in terms of how they coach their respective attacks, putting an emphasis on decision-making, passing distribution and kicking skills in backline play.

I think they have been heavily influenced by the dominant Queensland State of Origin side of the 2008-17, who found a way to field a team with Billy Slater [178cm/89kg | fullback], Darren Lockyer [178cm/84kg | fullback/five-eight] and then Cooper Cronk [178cm/89kg | halfback], Johnathan Thurston [179cm, 87kg | five-eighth] and Cameron Smith [185cm/90kg | hooker] in the same side.

With the exception of Smith [not a big man by any standard of pro rugby] none of them were over 180cm or 90kg, and Origin is as competitive and physical an environment as you will find in either code of rugby. There's a very strong argument that these players are all just great players, and Queensland were basically gifted with outstanding talent; I think you could look at the current Dubs team in Gaelic football with the same attitude. But I don't think that said argument precludes the idea that the way that they were coached both allowed them and provoked them to be great. The combination of talent and coaching with progressive thinking from both sides actually moved their entire code forward into a new era in terms of tactics and performance.

Returning to the Dubs as an example, their style of play has essentially retired the dominant 'puke' football tactic of the 00s. Some teams still do it, but they don't win All Irelands with it. There are some players who fit stereotypes [Brian Fenton is a classic midfielder], but the likes of Stephen Cluxton, Ciaran Kilkenny and Jack McCaffrey [and Paul Mannion to an extent, with his phenomenal level of tracking in 2017 and 2018] have redefined the potential of their positions under Jim Gavin.

I wasn't too familiar with the NRL when I started watching the Origin games, but it was clear that Queensland were playing something a lot more nuanced than their NSW opponents. They had smaller, more skillful and more intelligent players in key positions, and they made those attributes count. The other vital element was that they were outstanding competitors and brave guys, particularly Cameron Smith and Lockyer, who were both absolutely nails.

A similar revolution occurred under Bill Walsh and his West Coast Offense with the 49ers, which redefined the way American Football was played in the 1980s. There is no team in the NFL which doesn't use those 'finesse team' concepts these days, even if they are just a small part of the playbook. Rice, Montana, and Craig were all phenomenal players who doubtless would have done well in any side, but playing together under an inspired coach, they changed their whole code of football.

I think this RWC will be a watershed and that we will see continued law changes to the game over the next three years, because the physical toll is too high now. The next iteration of the game will see a change in backplay that will have less reliance on pure physical ability and position specificity, and more reliance on individual ball skills and decision-making. So I would not be surprised if down the line we see a backline that features something like a Hughie O'Sullivan at No9, a Harry Byrne at No10, a David Hawkshaw at No12 and a Ciaran Frawley or Jimmy O'Brien at No15 - four players who can make decisions, run, pass, kick and tackle. But all of them will have to become more vocal, more abrasive and tougher [including Hawkshaw and O'Sullivan, who come recommended in those regards]. I think Joey Carbery is a huge loss for us in that regard, but that the retention of Stuart Lancaster is a huge plus.

[Oldschool]

The drive, coming mainly from the SH, to make rugby more entertaining by speeding up the game has contributed hugely to the game being less safe.
Speed kills. To paraphrase it's not the fall that kills it's the sudden stop at the end.
Line speed is a core issue regarding safety.
Lowering the permitted tackle height is an acknowledgement of this fact but I wouldn't be so sure it's a solution.
In fact it may cause as many problems as it solves.
However a huge emphasis on proper tackling technique would be a good place to start.
Allied to a defence perhaps there is a need to create a tackling coach position or at least acknowledge tackling as a specific skill.

[wixfjord]

Leinster have not yet announced who will step into the role of captain whilst Johnny Sexton is away at the World Cup, but the players have voted for a five-man leadership group for the first phase of the new Guinness Pro14 season.

With last year’s vice-captains Rhys Ruddock and Luke McGrath also currently in Japan with Joe Schmidt’s Ireland, the Leinster dressing room nominated Scott Fardy, Ross Molony, Jamison Gibson-Park, Ed Byrne and Fergus McFadden as part of the leadership group.

Interesting group. Great to see JGP and Byrne in there. JGP was great for us last year and could push Luke for the #1 spot now with the three player gone. Ed more than deserves plaudits and he's obviously seen as a bit of a pack leader now.

[ronk]

A similar revolution occurred under Bill Walsh and his West Coast Offense with the 49ers, which redefined the way American Football was played in the 1980s. There is no team in the NFL which doesn't use those 'finesse team' concepts these days, even if they are just a small part of the playbook. Rice, Montana, and Craig were all phenomenal players who doubtless would have done well in any side, but playing together under an inspired coach, they changed their whole code of football.

None of them were certs.

Montana was a 3rd round pick who was there from the start and wouldn't have gone far in traditional offences. Dwight Clarke was the early star and he got involved by accident. Rice was a good player but small, from a small college and didn't have great straight line speed.

Craig wouldn't have done nearly as well for a team that couldn't use him as a receiver in the way the 49ers did. He was the first player to rush and receive for 1000 yards in a season.

Walsh did revolutionize the game.

[Peg Leg]

Will be pretty interesting to see who we play at 15 in the Treviso game now.

Possibly between Kelleher and JOB?

I think you're dead right, and the spot is up for grabs - short term and long term. In the medium term [season long] RK will be back after RWC.

We have been blessed to have been served for two decades by two classic, dyed-in-the-wool fullbacks: Girv [13 pro seasons, 173 Leinster appearances, 82 Irish caps] and Rob [14+ pro seasons, 210+ Leinster appearances, 92+ Irish caps]. We've had a great couple of cameos in the interim from Isa and Joey Carbery.

However, Hansen with NZ and Damien McKenzie/Beauden Barett/Richie Mo'unga, and Mark McCall with Saracens and Owen Farrell/Alex Goode/Alex Lozowski are leading the way into the future in terms of how they coach their respective attacks, putting an emphasis on decision-making, passing distribution and kicking skills in backline play.

I think they have been heavily influenced by the dominant Queensland State of Origin side of the 2008-17, who found a way to field a team with Billy Slater [178cm/89kg | fullback], Darren Lockyer [178cm/84kg | fullback/five-eight] and then Cooper Cronk [178cm/89kg | halfback], Johnathan Thurston [179cm, 87kg | five-eighth] and Cameron Smith [185cm/90kg | hooker] in the same side.

With the exception of Smith [not a big man by any standard of pro rugby] none of them were over 180cm or 90kg, and Origin is as competitive and physical an environment as you will find in either code of rugby. There's a very strong argument that these players are all just great players, and Queensland were basically gifted with outstanding talent; I think you could look at the current Dubs team in Gaelic football with the same attitude. But I don't think that said argument precludes the idea that the way that they were coached both allowed them and provoked them to be great. The combination of talent and coaching with progressive thinking from both sides actually moved their entire code forward into a new era in terms of tactics and performance.

Returning to the Dubs as an example, their style of play has essentially retired the dominant 'puke' football tactic of the 00s. Some teams still do it, but they don't win All Irelands with it. There are some players who fit stereotypes [Brian Fenton is a classic midfielder], but the likes of Stephen Cluxton, Ciaran Kilkenny and Jack McCaffrey [and Paul Mannion to an extent, with his phenomenal level of tracking in 2017 and 2018] have redefined the potential of their positions under Jim Gavin.

I wasn't too familiar with the NRL when I started watching the Origin games, but it was clear that Queensland were playing something a lot more nuanced than their NSW opponents. They had smaller, more skillful and more intelligent players in key positions, and they made those attributes count. The other vital element was that they were outstanding competitors and brave guys, particularly Cameron Smith and Lockyer, who were both absolutely nails.

A similar revolution occurred under Bill Walsh and his West Coast Offense with the 49ers, which redefined the way American Football was played in the 1980s. There is no team in the NFL which doesn't use those 'finesse team' concepts these days, even if they are just a small part of the playbook. Rice, Montana, and Craig were all phenomenal players who doubtless would have done well in any side, but playing together under an inspired coach, they changed their whole code of football.

I think this RWC will be a watershed and that we will see continued law changes to the game over the next three years, because the physical toll is too high now. The next iteration of the game will see a change in backplay that will have less reliance on pure physical ability and position specificity, and more reliance on individual ball skills and decision-making. So I would not be surprised if down the line we see a backline that features something like a Hughie O'Sullivan at No9, a Harry Byrne at No10, a David Hawkshaw at No12 and a Ciaran Frawley or Jimmy O'Brien at No15 - four players who can make decisions, run, pass, kick and tackle. But all of them will have to become more vocal, more abrasive and tougher [including Hawkshaw and O'Sullivan, who come recommended in those regards]. I think Joey Carbery is a huge loss for us in that regard, but that the retention of Stuart Lancaster is a huge plus.

Jesus Hugo, he asked for an opinion for a pick at 15, not feckin war and peace!

Great post all the same

[hugonaut]

Jesus Hugo, he asked for an opinion for a pick at 15, not feckin war and peace!

Great post all the same

I couldn't stop, I've been thinking about it for a long time!

I have pretty much always thought of fullback as a specialist position, and am not a fan of turning wingers into fullbacks. But when you see somebody like Steve Hansen move Barrett – a two time IPOTY winner as an outhalf – to fullback, then you have to think twice.

[ronk]

Jesus Hugo, he asked for an opinion for a pick at 15, not feckin war and peace!

Great post all the same

I couldn't stop, I've been thinking about it for a long time!

I have pretty much always thought of fullback as a specialist position, and am not a fan of turning wingers into fullbacks. But when you see somebody like Steve Hansen move Barrett – a two time IPOTY winner as an outhalf – to fullback, then you have to think twice.

Screen passes have opened up the opportunities for additional playmakers, especially at 12 and 15, but also 13s who can kick. Even before that outhalves have been key players to cover back when a fullback chases a kick so they actually play fullback in broken play. In games with a lot of kick chase ( many games) their fullback ability (positioning) is essential.

Also in the same way as a tighthead's rival is the opposition loosehead, an outhalf battles the fullback when he kicks, so they naturally benefit from mutual understanding.

In the Irish system you tend to get fullback-wings and fullback-outhalves, and many fullbacks convert to other positions due to a logjam. For us Dempsey and Kearney have been that logjam, and it really has been amazing.

[ronk]

COB would be an option there also.

hasn't played 10 since he was u18.

So he really isn't.

Probably not that much difference with some of the sub-academy lads.

[ChurchtownRFC]

Would ryan crotty be in the mold of a cronk or Smith?