Leinster Scrumhalves

[wixfjord]

Ah lads, there is *no* hope of JGP going to the WC unless there's at least two SH injuries. Even then I reckon Schmidt would take Blade ahead of him.

[Workhorse]

watching Casey against England and his speed of pass is really incredible..

he gets to the breakdown quickly and gets the ball out quickly, with little to no complaining to the ref and usually making the right decision.

Leinster haven't had a talent like him come through the system in my time watching it, Luke McGrath being the closest to him but without the laser fast pass off both hands or the super quick ability to get the ball out of the breakdown.

Casey did display weakness with his kicking and it wasn't a perfect game from him in that regard.

Shame Cormac Foley didn't get a run off the bench given game was determined with 5 minutes to go. Still don't know what to make of him really, another project at 9 who has been converted from a different position.

it will be interesting to see which irish 9 is better at the weekend, Casey or louth man Michael McDonald.

Seem to be on my own in thinking Casey wasn't as good as he's being made out to have been against England. His pass is accurate and very fast but his kicking wasn't great at best and his decision making left a lot to be desired, he gave a forward an absolute hospital pass right at the start of the game, full man and ball also didn't seem to do too much around the fringes of the ruck but maybe that could be put down to England's defence. Good player with a lot of potential but I think a lot of the hype around his performance is a bit over the top.

[mildlyinterested]

I said his kicking wasn't great and as a 20 year old, he isn't always going to make the right decision but he does get the ball out of the breakdown quickly, not flapping his arms or complaining to the ref and for a young 9 he showed improved decision making as the game went on. it wasn't his best game, but it was certainly very good, there is a reason leo tried to sign him and it's because he is a top tier prospect at 9, much better than anything we have in our system currently or have had come through since probably the early days of professionalism.

if he was a leinster produced prospect, the excitement around his potential future would be huge.

[leinsterforever]

Hughie seems to be more ponderous and slower at making decisions, which is unsurprising given his lack of experience there.

Funny, I've mentioned that loads and you've disagreed with me every time

am i not allowed to re-evaluate my opinion at the end of the season?

IMO he hasn't shown enough progression due to his lack of gametime at AIL level this season which has prevented him from gaining valuable experience.

he could still improve his decision making but I fear he wont get the quality gametime to do so.

If it's minutes he needs, he might be better off starting Celtic Cup games than getting brief appearances at the end of Pro14 games.

[mildlyinterested]

If it's minutes he needs, he might be better off starting Celtic Cup games than getting brief appearances at the end of Pro14 games.

He needs starts and a lot of them, at AIL, celtic cup or Pro 14 level. He didnt get enough of this season and scrumhalves need experience to develop better & quicker decision making even more so for hughie who played 15 in school and only moved full time to 9 last season.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

am i not allowed to re-evaluate my opinion at the end of the season?

Of course you are, but that would imply that you recently rewatched his performances and came to a different conclusion. Either you did that or you've copped that a lot of people agreed with what I said and just taken that opinion as the right one now.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

He's not in the training squad.

He’s also not Irish qualified yet and was injured for the end of the season.

Kleyn is in the same boat but he was in the squad.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Seem to be on my own in thinking Casey wasn't as good as he's being made out to have been against England. His pass is accurate and very fast but his kicking wasn't great at best and his decision making left a lot to be desired, he gave a forward an absolute hospital pass right at the start of the game, full man and ball also didn't seem to do too much around the fringes of the ruck but maybe that could be put down to England's defence. Good player with a lot of potential but I think a lot of the hype around his performance is a bit over the top.

Agree with you to an extent. Thought he still had a good game overall but he certainly made some errors and his control wasn't great, but I thought his all round game was superb during the 6N so I'm not worried. I think he suffered from us wanting to run the legs off England. Okay that suited his passing and his pace but it meant that that was all he did at times when we needed something different.

[artaneboy]

He's not in the training squad.

He’s also not Irish qualified yet and was injured for the end of the season.

Kleyn is in the same boat but he was in the squad.

But he wasn’t injured.


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[LeRouxIsPHat]

Okay let's take that theory through fully then. I don't think JGP is bad at all (not even sure if he was ruled out or if we just went with Fardy and Lowe) but let's just say that he was.

You think it's possible that a scrumhalf (the brains of your team along with the outhalf) who has never been in Ireland camp and will be injured for most of the summer (he'd have to be to rule him out of the training squad by your logic) will suddenly parachute in ahead of at least two players who have been in the squad about 6 weeks out from a World Cup that we've been preparing for for nearly 4 years?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Just checked and JGP was fit for the Munster game.

[ronk]

Okay let's take that theory through fully then. I don't think JGP is bad at all (not even sure if he was ruled out or if we just went with Fardy and Lowe) but let's just say that he was.

You think it's possible that a scrumhalf (the brains of your team along with the outhalf) who has never been in Ireland camp and will be injured for most of the summer (he'd have to be to rule him out of the training squad by your logic) will suddenly parachute in ahead of at least two players who have been in the squad about 6 weeks out from a World Cup that we've been preparing for for nearly 4 years?

It’s looking less likely

[artaneboy]

Okay let's take that theory through fully then. I don't think JGP is bad at all (not even sure if he was ruled out or if we just went with Fardy and Lowe) but let's just say that he was.

You think it's possible that a scrumhalf (the brains of your team along with the outhalf) who has never been in Ireland camp and will be injured for most of the summer (he'd have to be to rule him out of the training squad by your logic) will suddenly parachute in ahead of at least two players who have been in the squad about 6 weeks out from a World Cup that we've been preparing for for nearly 4 years?

I think he’s more than good enough to go. That’s the final consideration. He’s also a player with the basic skill set that suits our evolving style and he demonstrated an ability to learn and add to his abilities.

We are always “preparing 4 years” for each World Cup and each rotation there are surprise selections- bolters. That’s normal.

Scrum half’s are certainly the pivot of the team, but it’s not a complex by-the-numbers set piece that must be learnt over months and years as part of a squad. It’s a limited set of very technical skills that contenders must have from the off. He patently has those skills- and he plays regularly with the whole midfield and most of the team- for God’s sake! You really don’t think he capable of learning the tactical systems for the RWC if he’s selected this summer?

You have a point that the longer he’s ‘out of camp’ and not participating in the squad, the less likely he will be selected. But you could make a similar argument that the lineout is the most complex set piece and Klyen is selected now and expected to do the business there. He’s there because he’s fit and eligible- but mostly because he’s judged good enough.

What will determine the IRFU project player’s (remember) selection or otherwise is the available alternatives. Murray’s there. Marmion, McGrath and Cooney are the current alternatives. But they won’t be complacent that JGP cannot leap frog them. By the way, Blade who was both fit and eligible would be already in the squad if Joe fancied him.

Jamie supposedly qualifies this month- don’t know the date, so we’ll know soon at the next camp selection.



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[mildlyinterested]

am i not allowed to re-evaluate my opinion at the end of the season?

Of course you are, but that would imply that you recently rewatched his performances and came to a different conclusion. Either you did that or you've copped that a lot of people agreed with what I said and just taken that opinion as the right one now.

yeah thats it

[mildlyinterested]

4 scrumhalves potentially in the sub-academy next season:

Adam McEvoy(St. Marys/U20)
Jack Connolly(Gonzaga/U20)
Ben Murphy(Pres Bray/U19)
Rob Gilsenan(St. Michaels/U19)

It will be interesting to see what clubs they end up at, the academy scrumhalves next season will likely be:

Paddy Patterson(UCD)
Cormac Foley(St. Marys)

Would like to see one of them end up at DUFC and work with Tony Smeeth.

Ben Murphy looks the best bet to make the full academy at this stage and possibly play irish 20's next season.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think he’s more than good enough to go. That’s the final consideration. He’s also a player with the basic skill set that suits our evolving style and he demonstrated an ability to learn and add to his abilities.

We are always “preparing 4 years” for each World Cup and each rotation there are surprise selections- bolters. That’s normal.

Scrum half’s are certainly the pivot of the team, but it’s not a complex by-the-numbers set piece that must be learnt over months and years as part of a squad. It’s a limited set of very technical skills that contenders must have from the off. He patently has those skills- and he plays regularly with the whole midfield and most of the team- for God’s sake! You really don’t think he capable of learning the tactical systems for the RWC if he’s selected this summer?

You have a point that the longer he’s ‘out of camp’ and not participating in the squad, the less likely he will be selected. But you could make a similar argument that the lineout is the most complex set piece and Klyen is selected now and expected to do the business there. He’s there because he’s fit and eligible- but mostly because he’s judged good enough.

What will determine the IRFU project player’s (remember) selection or otherwise is the available alternatives. Murray’s there. Marmion, McGrath and Cooney are the current alternatives. But they won’t be complacent that JGP cannot leap frog them. By the way, Blade who was both fit and eligible would be already in the squad if Joe fancied him.

Jamie supposedly qualifies this month- don’t know the date, so we’ll know soon at the next camp selection.

Kleyn doesn't qualify until August.

Whether JGP is good enough or not is irrelevant to this. It's not a question of being good enough, it's a question of whether he's going to Japan or not and there is literally nothing to indicate that he is.

And yes I think scrumhalf is an incredibly difficult position to learn in a short space of time. He hasn't even been in camp but you think it's likely that he'll be brought into the squad a few weeks out from departure and learn all the calls and patterns? And he'll do that at the expense of AT LEAST two guys who have been in camp and played in big games for us as we prepared for the World Cup?

He's fit now (or certainly fit enough to have been named in this squad which I think meets in the next week or so) and qualifies before Kleyn, so why on earth doesn't Joe have him in the squad to get him up to speed if it's so likely that he's going to travel?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

am i not allowed to re-evaluate my opinion at the end of the season?

Of course you are, but that would imply that you recently rewatched his performances and came to a different conclusion. Either you did that or you've copped that a lot of people agreed with what I said and just taken that opinion as the right one now.

yeah thats it

Oh so you rewatched his performances then? Not sure how else you'd change your mind.

[mildlyinterested]

Oh so you rewatched his performances then? Not sure how else you'd change your mind.

I reviewed his season and re-adjusted my opinion. If you can't accept that that's fine with me.

You seem to prefer to think i'm just copying your opinion which is frankly bollix although not surprising from you

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Oh so you rewatched his performances then? Not sure how else you'd change your mind.

I reviewed his season and re-adjusted my opinion. If you can't accept that that's fine with me.

You seem to prefer to think i'm just copying your opinion which is frankly bollix although not surprising from you

Incorrect, I think people on PR have kept questioning your opinion on him and you've changed your mind because of that. I mean, how can you have one opinion all season but then come to a different conclusion when you "review his season"?

"Not surprising from you" is not the slag that you think it is. It is 100% fact that you do copy things and post them elsewhere. The highlight for me was when you shot down my opinion that Timmins should move to hooker and then went on PR literally a few minutes later and suggested the same thing.

[artaneboy]

I think he’s more than good enough to go. That’s the final consideration. He’s also a player with the basic skill set that suits our evolving style and he demonstrated an ability to learn and add to his abilities.

We are always “preparing 4 years” for each World Cup and each rotation there are surprise selections- bolters. That’s normal.

Scrum half’s are certainly the pivot of the team, but it’s not a complex by-the-numbers set piece that must be learnt over months and years as part of a squad. It’s a limited set of very technical skills that contenders must have from the off. He patently has those skills- and he plays regularly with the whole midfield and most of the team- for God’s sake! You really don’t think he capable of learning the tactical systems for the RWC if he’s selected this summer?

You have a point that the longer he’s ‘out of camp’ and not participating in the squad, the less likely he will be selected. But you could make a similar argument that the lineout is the most complex set piece and Klyen is selected now and expected to do the business there. He’s there because he’s fit and eligible- but mostly because he’s judged good enough.

What will determine the IRFU project player’s (remember) selection or otherwise is the available alternatives. Murray’s there. Marmion, McGrath and Cooney are the current alternatives. But they won’t be complacent that JGP cannot leap frog them. By the way, Blade who was both fit and eligible would be already in the squad if Joe fancied him.

Jamie supposedly qualifies this month- don’t know the date, so we’ll know soon at the next camp selection.

Kleyn doesn't qualify until August.

Whether JGP is good enough or not is irrelevant to this. It's not a question of being good enough, it's a question of whether he's going to Japan or not and there is literally nothing to indicate that he is.

And yes I think scrumhalf is an incredibly difficult position to learn in a short space of time. He hasn't even been in camp but you think it's likely that he'll be brought into the squad a few weeks out from departure and learn all the calls and patterns? And he'll do that at the expense of AT LEAST two guys who have been in camp and played in big games for us as we prepared for the World Cup?

He's fit now (or certainly fit enough to have been named in this squad which I think meets in the next week or so) and qualifies before Kleyn, so why on earth doesn't Joe have him in the squad to get him up to speed if it's so likely that he's going to travel?

I thought we established back a few posts ago that it's a question of being both eligible and fit/ available. Klyen is fit- JGP wasn't then. I think Jamie is/ was a project player brought in to qualify for Ireland, he has played very well in that period and is at least on a par with his Leinster colleague on ability- and with Cooney. So- yes- I think he could jump the queue. It might take an injury- but that's not unknown.

I don't accept that scrum half is anymore demanding of a top player like him on adapting to systems than any other position. We are clearly not asking to "learn," as you put it. He's very familiar with the players and their style- and Ireland's game is more basdic than Leinster's- so tI don't accept that it's a real issue to selection- even with a conservative coach such as Joe.

Anyway, as i stated already, we'll know soon enough. Good luck to him...