Leinster exiles, where are they.

[jezzer]

We can't hold all the cards otherwise what's the point in playing the game?

Some movement to other provinces is not only inevitable but necessary and what's the point in looking back and playing "what if?" We have a massive demographic advantage that can't be copied and a schools-level coaching advantage that can only be partially copied. We have enough with that..

[curates_egg]

Two superb performances by Beirne on that tour. His last 20 minutes, in particular, were sublime.

You really have to wonder if he is the player that would have made the difference for us against La Rochelle.

Beirne isn't looking nearly as good against a heavyweight pack such as La Rochelle or SA if playing for Ireland.

He player extremely well but NZ didn't challenge Ireland the way Sarries/La Rochelle did Leinster.

He has delivered against heavyweight packs too. His carrying and link play is better than Ryan/Molony/Baird at the moment, and his breakdown work definitely is. I think it's not controversial to argue that he has been the best second row in the country since the World Cup.

I think he would fit in very well with us, and could (have) be(en) the ruck disruptor we are missing.
Leinster Leader's point about the injuries holds though.

[curates_egg]

I guess the other reality is that we need a tighthead lock.
Ryan was so good in the final two tests as well. Imagine what he will be like if he has a proper tighthead lock inside him.

[Flash Gordon]

Talented inside center Lucas Berti has signed for Montpellier on a 3 year deal. Newbridge College past pupil Lucas (Class 2021) played for Bristol U18s in the Academy League last season.
Anthony Floch: “At 18 Lucas was already training with the pros where his talent was obvious to everyone! Lucas can play in all positions on the 3/4 line. He has fire support and extraordinary gestures. All complemented by a great knowledge of the game!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Hard to know exactly but looks to me like this might be a hint that he plans to play for Chile? He’s English qualified so is essentially turning his back on that, or did they turn their back on him? But this will make him JIFF qualified in a few years which means he could play for Chile but still play for French clubs.

[paddyor]

4 forwards in the NZ squad are ex-Leinster without having been poached. Loughman, Beirne, Prendergast, Timoney.

It's a huge tribute to the Leinster production system and also an indictment of our development. But it's a much bigger indictment of the other provinces.

I think you can automatically separate Prendergast and Timoney from that list because we clearly appear to have gotten the backrow calls right.
As for Loughman, the other three looseheads on the tour are current Leinster players, so it doesn't really reflect badly on us either.

Yeah Loughman was 6th choice when he came thru

[the spoofer]

I think Oli Jaeger can give up on his All Black dream. Not exactly the strongest crop of LH's around and he still doesn't get a look in.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think Oli Jaeger can give up on his All Black dream. Not exactly the strongest crop of LH's around and he still doesn't get a look in.

*THs

But I thought the same earlier, particularly because the new NZ coach came from the Crusaders.

[the spoofer]

I think Oli Jaeger can give up on his All Black dream. Not exactly the strongest crop of LH's around and he still doesn't get a look in.

*THs

But I thought the same earlier, particularly because the new NZ coach came from the Crusaders.

Apols. Of course.

[cormac]

Quinn Roux has signed for Bath

[hugonaut]

Quinn Roux has signed for Bath

Just saw that on my way home. It's important that he is described as injury cover for Chalie Ewels [source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rug ... 27823.html ] as it has a big impact on how much he can be paid.

I was wondering if his agent had approached any Irish clubs, because there's a lot of talk about how the salary cap has made English clubs uncompetitive. If he was available to come from Toulon to Bath for a season before RWC23, I was thinking that the IRFU should have tried hard to bring him back to Connacht. However, there are a few wrinkles to consider.

1. The salary cap in the Premiership is £5m [Premiership Salary Cap Document, link here: https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... .09.21.pdf ]

2. Roux does not qualify as a 'Home Grown Player'.

3. He does qualify as an "International Qualified Player, who is not a Senior EPS Player". As such, if he were to be "unavailable for selection for a Gallagher Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup match, subject to Regulation 3.22", a credit of £10,000 per match (“International Variable Player Credit") would be deducted from his team's salary cap for that season.[Section 3.21.1] However, Ireland don't pick players playing in England, so this is null and void.

4. However, "A Club is entitled to credits for the cost of replacing one or more Injured Players up to a maximum of £400,000 (“Injured Player Credit”), provided that on each occasion the Salary Cap Director approves the cost in advance in writing." [Section 3.30 onwards]

5. Ewels was injured while on tour with England [link: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/bath-iss ... h-england/ ]; he is in the RFU's EPS [Elite Player Squad - https://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-men#squad ]. Bath also have Sam Underhill, Will Stuart and Joe Cokanasiga in the England EPS. Bath are allowed a credit against the salary cap of £40k/player in the EPS [Section 3.20]

6. Ewels may have been one of Bath's two 'Excuded Players', i.e. players who are not included in the salary cap. However, that is speculation: due to Section 3.29 "A Club is not entitled to know the identity of the Excluded Players of other Clubs."

7. Whether or not Ewels was an "Excluded Player", second rows are one of the most highly paid positions in the Premiership [source: https://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/rev ... /28755.htm ], and Bruce Craig is one of the wealthiest owners in the PRL. He has the resources to go over the salary cap; it is the legality of it that is a limiting factor for him, not the cost.

8. On the basis of the above, i.e. Roux being a "Proposed Replacement" for an "Injured Player" and thus qualifying for "Injured Player Credit", it is possible that he might be getting pretty close to £400k/season [€476k], which is a lot higher than he would get in Ireland.

[suisse]

Absolutely impossible to know if Tadgh Beirne would have worked out had he stayed. But there is far too much emphasis put on Leinster having let him go, especially by fans and media of the province that has benefited greatly from his return to Ireland. Sometimes players leave and just flourish elsewhere. Old Crescent and UL educated Eoin Reddan left Munster after 25 caps in 3 years and immediately went on to win the Premiership and Heineken Cup with Wasps, 2 more Heinekens with Leinster, an Amlin, domestic cups and 71 Ireland caps. Sean Cronin, also from limerick, played twice for Munster before 62 Connacht caps saw Leinster sign him. He played 72 times for Ireland, over 200 for Leinster and is one of the most successful players in Irish rugby history. Mike Ross only managed 1 Munster appearance. Didn't stop him locking down Quins' scrum 84 times and Leinster'S over 150 times. He was a major part of that 2011 Comeback. Another highly decorated Munster player who won no caps or medals whilst coming thru there. Given Leinster'S demographics, it is a major testament to the coaching and scouting that Beirne is pretty much the only player let go/released in the last decade who has gone on to be so good that he'd make the Leinster team now.

[suisse]

There is also too much wailing when a 3rd choice Leinster player is approached to play for Munster and he, who has the final decision, accepts the offer. "why can't they develop their own" and "they're stealing" as if the player moved at gunpoint. Any player that has left Leinster in the last 10 years has been adequately replaced and often a superior academy graduate has taken over. The only possible exception is Conway. For all the BS about him not getting enough chances Conway started 2 finals in his last month. Won both. Won nothing since.

If a player chooses to leave the fantastic Leinster set up for the promise of regular first team rugby elsewhere then great. Their decision and good for them. There is no point keeping a guy like Scott Penney if he gets an offer he likes from another province. He isn't going to play big games unless there's injury and the Leinster system will probably churn out an upgrade soo after

[curates_egg]

Absolutely impossible to know if Tadgh Beirne would have worked out had he stayed. But there is far too much emphasis put on Leinster having let him go, especially by fans and media of the province that has benefited greatly from his return to Ireland. Sometimes players leave and just flourish elsewhere.

That wasn't what we were discussing. We were discussing whether, if we had signed him back, he might have been the difference we were looking for.

[curates_egg]

There is also too much wailing when a 3rd choice Leinster player is approached to play for Munster and he, who has the final decision, accepts the offer. "why can't they develop their own" and "they're stealing" as if the player moved at gunpoint.

I don't think think I have ever seen anyone wailing about 3rd choice players being approached to play for Munster, but would be happy to be given an example of one.

People were pissed off with how Carbery (who was second choice, an international, and a fixed member of the European matchday 23) was strongarmed into going to Munster.
People are also pissed off about the special treatment Munster gets, notably in terms of signing overseas players and budgetary support from the IRFU.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Absolutely impossible to know if Tadgh Beirne would have worked out had he stayed. But there is far too much emphasis put on Leinster having let him go, especially by fans and media of the province that has benefited greatly from his return to Ireland. Sometimes players leave and just flourish elsewhere.

That wasn't what we were discussing. We were discussing whether, if we had signed him back, he might have been the difference we were looking for.

I think it’s fair to say that the discussion moved on a bit from the original ideas, no?

[pangurban1]

There is also too much wailing when a 3rd choice Leinster player is approached to play for Munster and he, who has the final decision, accepts the offer. "why can't they develop their own" and "they're stealing" as if the player moved at gunpoint. Any player that has left Leinster in the last 10 years has been adequately replaced and often a superior academy graduate has taken over. The only possible exception is Conway. For all the BS about him not getting enough chances Conway started 2 finals in his last month. Won both. Won nothing since.

If a player chooses to leave the fantastic Leinster set up for the promise of regular first team rugby elsewhere then great. Their decision and good for them. There is no point keeping a guy like Scott Penney if he gets an offer he likes from another province. He isn't going to play big games unless there's injury and the Leinster system will probably churn out an upgrade soo after

Any of them on the internet hate quite a few Leinster players, used to be Heaslip now it's Conan etc.
All this Munster be the grace of God is comical when we have seen 11 or more non Munster in the 23.

[ronk]

There is also too much wailing when a 3rd choice Leinster player is approached to play for Munster and he, who has the final decision, accepts the offer. "why can't they develop their own" and "they're stealing" as if the player moved at gunpoint. Any player that has left Leinster in the last 10 years has been adequately replaced and often a superior academy graduate has taken over. The only possible exception is Conway. For all the BS about him not getting enough chances Conway started 2 finals in his last month. Won both. Won nothing since.

If a player chooses to leave the fantastic Leinster set up for the promise of regular first team rugby elsewhere then great. Their decision and good for them. There is no point keeping a guy like Scott Penney if he gets an offer he likes from another province. He isn't going to play big games unless there's injury and the Leinster system will probably churn out an upgrade soo after

Nick McCarthy.

[ronk]

Absolutely impossible to know if Tadgh Beirne would have worked out had he stayed. But there is far too much emphasis put on Leinster having let him go, especially by fans and media of the province that has benefited greatly from his return to Ireland. Sometimes players leave and just flourish elsewhere. Old Crescent and UL educated Eoin Reddan left Munster after 25 caps in 3 years and immediately went on to win the Premiership and Heineken Cup with Wasps, 2 more Heinekens with Leinster, an Amlin, domestic cups and 71 Ireland caps. Sean Cronin, also from limerick, played twice for Munster before 62 Connacht caps saw Leinster sign him. He played 72 times for Ireland, over 200 for Leinster and is one of the most successful players in Irish rugby history. Mike Ross only managed 1 Munster appearance. Didn't stop him locking down Quins' scrum 84 times and Leinster'S over 150 times. He was a major part of that 2011 Comeback. Another highly decorated Munster player who won no caps or medals whilst coming thru there. Given Leinster'S demographics, it is a major testament to the coaching and scouting that Beirne is pretty much the only player let go/released in the last decade who has gone on to be so good that he'd make the Leinster team now.

The window between Stringer and Murray was relatively short so it's debatable the impact that losing Reddan had. I think it was big enough and at a critical time.

A ball carrying impact hooker and a lockdown tighthead, big loss. I think it's feasible that those 3 players move the dial on Munster's post 2008 decline.

It wasn't obvious at the time but I think history supports the point. Munster produced 3 elite internationals a few years later and built a team around them.

The real issue is that for every Beirne and Ross there's a multiple of guys who could have been as impactful, but it never worked out.

[Oldschoolsocks]

There is also too much wailing when a 3rd choice Leinster player is approached to play for Munster and he, who has the final decision, accepts the offer. "why can't they develop their own" and "they're stealing" as if the player moved at gunpoint. Any player that has left Leinster in the last 10 years has been adequately replaced and often a superior academy graduate has taken over. The only possible exception is Conway. For all the BS about him not getting enough chances Conway started 2 finals in his last month. Won both. Won nothing since.

If a player chooses to leave the fantastic Leinster set up for the promise of regular first team rugby elsewhere then great. Their decision and good for them. There is no point keeping a guy like Scott Penney if he gets an offer he likes from another province. He isn't going to play big games unless there's injury and the Leinster system will probably churn out an upgrade soo after

I think the point is that in the past Leinster players who have moved south have either retired early or withered in the vine.

Take Roman Salanoa for example, he has 3 caps for Leinster, was identified as a prospect in an area where we were light on numbers and was expected to break through. Then his head was turned and now that he’s with Munster since 2020 he has 9 caps and there’s no sign of a breakthrough for him at all with conservative Munster selection leaving him behind two mediocre Tight Heads.

I think that’s grounds for a bit of a whinge. The complaint is not so much that “they’re poaching our team” as their haphazard recruitment policy leads to situations where they’re wasting potential.