Leinster exiles, where are they.

[Oldschool]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

[ronk]

Not at all! he is a fantastic player and he's been a great catch for Munster, that is the reality.

But equally as real is the fact that thusfar for Scarlets and Munster whenever we've played him (for the most part anyway) we've had his number. I think he knows that too and thats part of the 'chip' on his shoulder.

As long as that's the case he can be as good as he likes for Munster and even better for Ireland!

He was a catch for Scarlets. He was a huge signing for Munster with IRFU support, and he supposedly was offered more by Scarlets but wanted to play for Ireland.

He was a miss because we expected him to fit into what we were looking for. We knew he was fast.

Pivac quickly fixed issues in his skillset, played to his strengths and his form shot up like a rocket. We completely got it wrong, but it happened at a low ebb for player development.

Munster could have signed him at that stage too, they didn't.

The Ulster game shows just how effective he is at 6. Scarlets often used him there or at 8 and used his breakdown skill in conjunction with Davies.

There are no good excuses, we signed very ordinary locks and didn't give him the gametime. We later hired a deeper set of skills coaches.

Beirne at Leinster would have been huge for us and we had a need.

Munster missing out on Cronin, Reddan and Ross was a huge aspect of their decline.

[Flash Gordon]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

Think the issues with MOC were a bit more fundamental than not picking Madigan!

[elephantman]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

Gopperth was and still is a better player than Madigan. One of the few decisions MOC got right.

[Laighin Break]

I liked Gopperth as a player. I felt that he showed flashes of real attacking ability but seemed to play within himself, most likely due to MOC's gameplan.
He seemed to be a nice/popular guy too. I remember the (somewhat cringe) interview with BOD right after his last game in the RDS and he was asked something like what teammate he'd (hypothetically) want to marry his daughter - he went with Gopperth.

[wixfjord]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

What the same Ian Madigan that couldn't cement a starting spot in front of Jimmy Gopperth, Simon Hickey, Callum Sheedy, Billy Burns?

It's funny this conversation is still happening after the trajectory Mad's career has taken compared to Gopperth, who was the better player then and still is.

[Flash Gordon]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

What the same Ian Madigan that couldn't cement a starting spot in front of Jimmy Gopperth, Simon Hickey, Callum Sheedy, Billy Burns?

It's funny this conversation is still happening after the trajectory Mad's career has taken compared to Gopperth, who was the better player then and still is.

Think the point is that he was an up and coming Irish outhalf who wasn't getting game time because of the MOC game plan and because Gopperth was getting picked ahead of him. Up to the point he left, Madigan had more than 30 caps for Ireland, 2 Champions Cups and 2 Pro 12s. He left after the RWC obviously but his performance against France was a bit of a masterclass.

What's said about him afterwards is true but you do wonder if he'd been in the right environment how he would have developed and matured because the skillset was all there. Going from a European champion to a mid table French team and a second division English team in the peak years of his career might have been the right thing for him to do financially but it was clearly the wrong rugby decision. By the way, God only knows why Burns is picked ahead of him at Ulster....

[wixfjord]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

What the same Ian Madigan that couldn't cement a starting spot in front of Jimmy Gopperth, Simon Hickey, Callum Sheedy, Billy Burns?

It's funny this conversation is still happening after the trajectory Mad's career has taken compared to Gopperth, who was the better player then and still is.

Think the point is that he was an up and coming Irish outhalf who wasn't getting game time because of the MOC game plan and because Gopperth was getting picked ahead of him. Up to the point he left, Madigan had more than 30 caps for Ireland, 2 Champions Cups and 2 Pro 12s. He left after the RWC obviously but his performance against France was a bit of a masterclass.

What's said about him afterwards is true but you do wonder if he'd been in the right environment how he would have developed and matured because the skillset was all there. Going from a European champion to a mid table French team and a second division English team in the peak years of his career might have been the right thing for him to do financially but it was clearly the wrong rugby decision. By the way, God only knows why Burns is picked ahead of him at Ulster....

This argument always goes the same way!

Madser had los of game time and lots of chances to cement the 10 jersey when Johnny left, incl 17 starts at 10 in the two seasons MOC was here.

He didn't and a guy who was better than him played more than him. That's it really.

Do you reckon it's a coincidence that in every side he has played in Mads has played second fiddle to someone we might consider a 'journeyman'?

[Flash Gordon]

Think the point is that he was an up and coming Irish outhalf who wasn't getting game time because of the MOC game plan and because Gopperth was getting picked ahead of him. Up to the point he left, Madigan had more than 30 caps for Ireland, 2 Champions Cups and 2 Pro 12s. He left after the RWC obviously but his performance against France was a bit of a masterclass.

What's said about him afterwards is true but you do wonder if he'd been in the right environment how he would have developed and matured because the skillset was all there. Going from a European champion to a mid table French team and a second division English team in the peak years of his career might have been the right thing for him to do financially but it was clearly the wrong rugby decision. By the way, God only knows why Burns is picked ahead of him at Ulster....

This argument always goes the same way!

Madser had los of game time and lots of chances to cement the 10 jersey when Johnny left, incl 17 starts at 10 in the two seasons MOC was here.

He didn't and a guy who was better than him played more than him. That's it really.

Do you reckon it's a coincidence that in every side he has played in Mads has played second fiddle to someone we might consider a 'journeyman'?

Who knows? It's all hypothetical of course. I think at Leinster MOC's game plan did nothing for him. Same goes for Bordeaux. When MOC was with us the game plan was a typical English run through them drill which was more suited to Ben Teo than Ian Madigan. He did well at Bristol but eventually lost his place to Sheedy who is far from a journeyman. His exile was at a critical stage of his career and I do wonder if he'd been in the right environment what player he might have become. Who knows, you could well be right. I just think it's a shame that a Leinster/Irish player went from beating France in the World Cup and 30 caps to, as you say, a very average rugby career.

[Oldschool]

Jimmy Gopperth wasn't the issue, MOC was.
He consistently refused to select Madigan at OH and develop him for the national team.
He lost his job as a result.
I could be wrong but did Cooney leave because of MOC too or was that on Joe's watch.

Gopperth was and still is a better player than Madigan. One of the few decisions MOC got right.

Read my post again. It has nothing to do with Gopperth being a better player than Madigan.
Gopperth being better than Madigan wasn't the issue.
MOC was taken to task by Joe and Nucifora over selection issues relating to the development of players for the the Irish squad.

[Dave Cahill]

Madigan is the anti-Beirne.

One left without anyone really caring but went on to have a magnificent career
One left with everyone upset about it and went on to have an average career

The only person who wasn't that upset (or at least didn't appear to be) about Madigan leaving was Joe Schmidt - he never really rated him. He was always a last resort option.

[ronk]

Displeasure at the Madigan Gopperth situation was a big factor in Leinster fans turning against MOC. Others were bigger.

MOC was right on it.

Gopperth was a good signing but he was pricey enough that he wasn't going as a backup. The IRFU could have made the call to stop him coming but they signed him knowing the risk to the depth chart.

Madigan was a very talented player with weaknesses in his game. He reduced and eliminated many of them but then his development stalled and he never really got back on track.

[Flash Gordon]

Madigan is the anti-Beirne.

One left without anyone really caring but went on to have a magnificent career
One left with everyone upset about it and went on to have an average career

The only person who wasn't that upset (or at least didn't appear to be) about Madigan leaving was Joe Schmidt - he never really rated him. He was always a last resort option.

Gave him 30 caps for Ireland Dave! Admittedly we were very thin on the ground outhalf wise at the time.....

Watching that Beirne masterclass last weekend was pretty traumatic though. What a player!

[mildlyinterested]

20 year old backrow will hickey on the bench for ospreys
19 ear old centre karl martin starting for Montpellier

[the spoofer]

Madigan is the anti-Beirne.

One left without anyone really caring but went on to have a magnificent career
One left with everyone upset about it and went on to have an average career

The only person who wasn't that upset (or at least didn't appear to be) about Madigan leaving was Joe Schmidt - he never really rated him. He was always a last resort option.

That's generous.

[leinsterforever]

Madigan is the anti-Beirne.

One left without anyone really caring but went on to have a magnificent career
One left with everyone upset about it and went on to have an average career

The only person who wasn't that upset (or at least didn't appear to be) about Madigan leaving was Joe Schmidt - he never really rated him. He was always a last resort option.

You could just as easily make the opposite argument. Schmidt brought him through at Leinster, and selected him ahead of Jackson for the Argentina qf in 2015. What would Madigan's career as an outhalf be like without his years under Schmidt?

I didn't particularly fancy him as a 10. To be honest I thought Marsh should have been getting the nod ahead of him towards the end of his time with Leinster. I was a bit bemused by all the anti-Gopperth sentiment when he was ahead of Madigan.

What was that game where Gopperth missed a crucial drop-goal? They should have got Madigan in position for that one. He's good at drop goals. Was it the Toulon semi in 2015? I see the score in that was 25-20. I seem to remember a game where the drop would have made a difference. Maybe Toulon got another 3 pts right at the death.

[Dexter]

Madigan is the anti-Beirne.

One left without anyone really caring but went on to have a magnificent career
One left with everyone upset about it and went on to have an average career

The only person who wasn't that upset (or at least didn't appear to be) about Madigan leaving was Joe Schmidt - he never really rated him. He was always a last resort option.

You could just as easily make the opposite argument. Schmidt brought him through at Leinster, and selected him ahead of Jackson for the Argentina qf in 2015. What would Madigan's career as an outhalf be like without his years under Schmidt?

I didn't particularly fancy him as a 10. To be honest I thought Marsh should have been getting the nod ahead of him towards the end of his time with Leinster. I was a bit bemused by all the anti-Gopperth sentiment when he was ahead of Madigan.

What was that game where Gopperth missed a crucial drop-goal? They should have got Madigan in position for that one. He's good at drop goals. Was it the Toulon semi in 2015? I see the score in that was 25-20. I seem to remember a game where the drop would have made a difference. Maybe Toulon got another 3 pts right at the death.

Was that when Toulon scored an intercept try in extra time to win the game?
I think he might have missed a DG at the end of normal time when scores were level.

[leinsterforever]

Madigan is the anti-Beirne.

One left without anyone really caring but went on to have a magnificent career
One left with everyone upset about it and went on to have an average career

The only person who wasn't that upset (or at least didn't appear to be) about Madigan leaving was Joe Schmidt - he never really rated him. He was always a last resort option.

You could just as easily make the opposite argument. Schmidt brought him through at Leinster, and selected him ahead of Jackson for the Argentina qf in 2015. What would Madigan's career as an outhalf be like without his years under Schmidt?

I didn't particularly fancy him as a 10. To be honest I thought Marsh should have been getting the nod ahead of him towards the end of his time with Leinster. I was a bit bemused by all the anti-Gopperth sentiment when he was ahead of Madigan.

What was that game where Gopperth missed a crucial drop-goal? They should have got Madigan in position for that one. He's good at drop goals. Was it the Toulon semi in 2015? I see the score in that was 25-20. I seem to remember a game where the drop would have made a difference. Maybe Toulon got another 3 pts right at the death.

Was that when Toulon scored an intercept try in extra time to win the game?
I think he might have missed a DG at the end of normal time when scores were level.

Ah! The intercept was in extra time. That makes sense. Why oh why didn't they give the drop goal to Madigan? He had a track record of knocking them over, whereas Gopperth was never very good at them.

[mildlyinterested]

Two tries for Lucas Berti Newman for Bristol u18's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOJ2R_G ... tolBearsTV

[Flash Gordon]

Two tries for Lucas Berti Newman for Bristol u18's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOJ2R_G ... tolBearsTV

He's not big is he? Looks speedy but not big enough to play top level rugby I'd imagine. Wouldn't be looking to solve our scrum half problems with the Bristol player by the way....