All Blacks nil wrote:It was the lack of opportunity in Ireland for IQ tightheads during the Botha Afoa period that helped create the situation that necessitated the SOS for Michael Bent. I don't think the Union would like to create a similar situation by easing the policies they have since pursued
Not the lack of tightheads then? Jumping the gun there a bit. The succession rules were introduced largely as a result of Corbisiero folding Tom Courts head into his arse(Court was a LH who could cover TH - apparently - for the English a famous victory was born). Court succeed Mushy as Irelands preferred option in this scenario. Before that the union(and others) preferred to have one expensive prop on the bench(they earn more on average than other positions - can you imagine what one who could cover both sides of the scrum even poorly would command)
The scrum didn't matter a whole lot to us before the hit became the centre piece and there was only one prop on the bench. The rules have since changed and TH props now get more game time to develop. It's never been the same for other positions like SH or OH. The only "positions" that aren't covered from the bench are 12 & 13 or if your of a mind similar to Schmidt centre. While I agree with the policy of union cash for union players the way it was handed down was OTT and in the end it was restructured. Rightly too! Would James Cronin have had a chance of developing as a LH in the same scrum as a greenhorn Archer.
The union did try to develop props like Peter Borlase...........it didn't work.
BJ hasn't babysat Cronin as he started out in First team rugby. Botha has only started in 6 of Cronin's 14 starts. Cronin was partnered by Archer and an equally "greenhorn" John Ryan in his other 8 starts.
So to answer your question, yes, he could develop as a LH in the same scrum as a greenhorn Archer.
I could use that as a signature but why be a dick.
All Blacks nil wrote:I could use that as a signature but why be a dick.
Don't be afraid of who you are! Intersting handle...what does it mean...what does it say about you etc.
Point stands anyway. Would Cronin have developed with the next Academy fella in the place of Archer. Maybe, maybe not!. You can't deny that the NIQs and coaches bring something to the squad and Community(Mannix - the great Munster race)
Was Borlaise not another "project" player
Yeah. Youv'e completely ignored the whole part of the IRFU trying to recruit/develop dual props which have since gone out of use and freed up game time for more expensive specialists(bench props now twice as expensive). The TH game time bottle neck that prompted the succession rules is gone and with it strict observance.
Also, as you've noted yourself the project player is starting to "bare fruit" for the IRFU, they don't have to be as anal as they said they would be to begin with. So in summary I don't think it's as unbelievable that we might be able to sign an NIQ SH.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
I'm happy for Gopperth that's he's getting a good deal. We can afford to lose him, but he's been a good player for us most of the time. When it's a choice between him and Sexton, no hesitation. I hope he leaves with silverware.
Botha was signed because Munster's splintering scrum stopped them getting out of their group and the same was going to happen again without drastic action. The prop situation across the provinces improved when they stopped trying to buy in easy option project players and actually worked on a solution. That and moving away from the daft policy of trying to convert 2nd rows to tighthead.
All Blacks nil wrote:I could use that as a signature but why be a dick.
Don't be afraid of who you are! Intersting handle...what does it mean...what does it say about you etc.
Point stands anyway. Would Cronin have developed with the next Academy fella in the place of Archer. Maybe, maybe not!. You can't deny that the NIQs and coaches bring something to the squad and Community(Mannix - the great Munster race)
Was Borlaise not another "project" player
Yeah. Youv'e completely ignored the whole part of the IRFU trying to recruit/develop dual props which have since gone out of use and freed up game time for more expensive specialists(bench props now twice as expensive). The TH game time bottle neck that prompted the succession rules is gone and with it strict observance.
Also, as you've noted yourself the project player is starting to "bare fruit" for the IRFU, they don't have to be as anal as they said they would be to begin with. So in summary I don't think it's as unbelievable that we might be able to sign an NIQ SH.
neiliog93 wrote:Any out-half signing next year is likely to be a 3-month 'joker' deal covering the period of the world cup and the few weeks immediately after it. We have no need for a 1-year deal for an outhalf when Jonny and MadDog return post WC.
I don't see the problem with us signing an NIQ scrum-half. Afoa and Botha were both starting tight-heads at Ulster and Munster respectively and the IRFU seemed happy enough to relax the rule, even with a (then unqualified) 32 year old project player starting at tight-head for Connacht, Nathan White. Post world cup, Boss will be nearly 36, although unlikely to be offered a contract beyond the world cup itself, and if he doesn't make the squad (and it's looking like he won't) then his Leinster time/rugby career generally may be over at the end of this season.
Eoin Reddan will be 35 at the end of the world cup and has expressed a desire to stay on, so he'll probably get the extension to the end of the 2015-16 season, at the end of which he'll be pushing 36 himself. He's said in interviews he'd like to play on longer than 2016 but at that age and in a position where speed/snappines is important, I don't see him getting the contract.
Thus, we're left with a 2015-16 situation where Leinster have no Boss, an ageing Reddan (away at the world cup for the start of the season as well), and McGrath. Maybe Cooney. Post WC many southern hemisphere players look to move to Europe - even at 33, Du Preez would be a great signing for a couple of years as we bed in McGrath and get him up to speed. The IRFU would surely allow it given the circumstances and the Afoa-Botha decision.
It was the lack of opportunity in Ireland for IQ tightheads during the Botha Afoa period that helped create the situation that necessitated the SOS for Michael Bent. I don't think the Union would like to create a similar situation by easing the policies they have since pursued
Your logic is based on the premise that the IRFU tried thus before and it didn't work: but it did work. The arrangements did not prevent tight heads coming through, they weren't ready! Rather the arrangement allowed the provinces to compete with putting unrealistic demands on unseasoned young players.
McGrath and Cooney aren't ready: Boss and Reddan are declining, we need a seasoned 9 to plug the gap.
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
neiliog93 wrote:Any out-half signing next year is likely to be a 3-month 'joker' deal covering the period of the world cup and the few weeks immediately after it. We have no need for a 1-year deal for an outhalf when Jonny and MadDog return post WC.
I don't see the problem with us signing an NIQ scrum-half. Afoa and Botha were both starting tight-heads at Ulster and Munster respectively and the IRFU seemed happy enough to relax the rule, even with a (then unqualified) 32 year old project player starting at tight-head for Connacht, Nathan White. Post world cup, Boss will be nearly 36, although unlikely to be offered a contract beyond the world cup itself, and if he doesn't make the squad (and it's looking like he won't) then his Leinster time/rugby career generally may be over at the end of this season.
Eoin Reddan will be 35 at the end of the world cup and has expressed a desire to stay on, so he'll probably get the extension to the end of the 2015-16 season, at the end of which he'll be pushing 36 himself. He's said in interviews he'd like to play on longer than 2016 but at that age and in a position where speed/snappines is important, I don't see him getting the contract.
Thus, we're left with a 2015-16 situation where Leinster have no Boss, an ageing Reddan (away at the world cup for the start of the season as well), and McGrath. Maybe Cooney. Post WC many southern hemisphere players look to move to Europe - even at 33, Du Preez would be a great signing for a couple of years as we bed in McGrath and get him up to speed. The IRFU would surely allow it given the circumstances and the Afoa-Botha decision.
Dr. Phil is still playing amateur rugby in Argentina, isn't he? Get him up here for 3 months at the start of next season, as a backup to Marsh. If that fails, time to give David Holwell a call.
We'll have the luxury of space for a big NIQ signing so I'd rather a Du Preez type than TOL. If an NIQ is absolutely out of the question, then TOL would certainly be better than relying on McGrath/a 35 year old Reddan in his last year.
Dr Phil is still plying away in Argentina alright, presumably practising as a doctor. If we he could be convinced aged 38 to resurrect his professional career for 3 months it could be a very good punt on our part..
"This is breathless stuff.....it's on again. Contepomi out to Hickie,D'Arcy,Hickie.......................HICKIE FOR THE CORNER! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looks like a good deal for both Wasps and Jimmy (if true). Wasps are getting a quality out half, and Jimmy is getting a nice chunk of change and a set of fans that wont think of him as "not Johnny" every time they talk about him.
goreyguy wrote:McGraths pass is a work in progress, which is to be expected as its his weakest part of his game and he is 21 years old with 2 senior starts to his name. He should be given all the game time against weak opposition but as soon as the bigger games arrive, he should be with B&I cup team. It's called player development, it has to happen by playing games.
I've no problem with him getting his share of games on the B&I Cup team- or a few on the Rabo team. What I object to is the belief that you and a couple of others have that any promising academy player is (all things being equal) entitled to a place on the top team ahead of a higher-level import to allow the former to develop. IRFU development obligations and all noted- that's just not the reality. The Rabo is a not a reserve league- MOC has obligations to win those games on the merit of the competition itself- leaving aside the very real need to qualify for the Oligarchs Cup. He should not start weakened teams for no better reason than 'Luke needs to test his pass in a real match'! When Luke shows enough progress not to be a liability, then he should get his chances.
We do, of course have an obligation as a branch to try and produce players. The IRFU supports us to do that. But part of that support is that we compete in all the competitions we enter. That matters to the IRFU as well as us, for the obvious reason that the more successful we are, the more sponsorship we attract to ourselves and the sport in general, the more attractive it is for people to support a national team with 'stars', etc. The virtuous circle of that is more money for the academies and to develop young players. So let's stop this pretence that there's a separation between 'development' and 'picking the best team'. We need to win to succeed/ survive; we need to develop to succeed/ survive also.
Last edited by artaneboy on November 7th, 2014, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
neiliog93 wrote:We'll have the luxury of space for a big NIQ signing so I'd rather a Du Preez type than TOL. If an NIQ is absolutely out of the question, then TOL would certainly be better than relying on McGrath/a 35 year old Reddan in his last year.
Dr Phil is still plying away in Argentina alright, presumably practising as a doctor. If we he could be convinced aged 38 to resurrect his professional career for 3 months it could be a very good punt on our part..
Not my favorite player either- but I'd go for TOL, if we cannot get a Du Preez/ Weepu sort at the right money. One way or another we will need an imported 9 next year.
Don't see an out half being a priority for a buy really.... much as I'd looooove to see Phil back in blue again!
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
Would prefer Stringer to TOL, he could teach Luke how to pass!
Actually, there might be something in that. Stringer's pass is totally different to the vast majority of 9s. The balls go vertically rather than horizontally. If Luke was to totally reconstruct his technique then he could do worse than copy that.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Would prefer Stringer to TOL, he could teach Luke how to pass!
Actually, there might be something in that. Stringer's pass is totally different to the vast majority of 9s. The balls go vertically rather than horizontally. If Luke was to totally reconstruct his technique then he could do worse than copy that.
Stringer then also gets to retire in Ireland and get his tax back?
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Would prefer Stringer to TOL, he could teach Luke how to pass!
Actually, there might be something in that. Stringer's pass is totally different to the vast majority of 9s. The balls go vertically rather than horizontally. If Luke was to totally reconstruct his technique then he could do worse than copy that.
Stringer then also gets to retire in Ireland and get his tax back?
Don't have to retire in Ireland to avail of that now. Anywhere in the EU will suffice.
The guy to get, if we believe McGrath can improve his passing, is Will Genia. He will be available after RWC15 and would bring star quality and a great outlook. Aussie stars have served Leinster well previously. The prospect of Genia and Sexton together for Jonno's best years would be fantastic
