Leinster v Edinburgh Fri 31 Oct

[All Blacks nil]

McGrath need to be given a run of starts ( especially with Reddan unavailable) so that Leinster can properly evaluate his worth. Both the incumbents are in their mid thirties and at the end of their contracts. Has anyone considered that either one or both may retire? Not everyone retires like BOD.
With Pienaar at Ulster an NIQ is not an option. McGrath needs to be properly tried ( as Murray was) as soon as possible. MOC needs to address this issue and not to do so would be a disservice

You "properly try" a guy who has the basics. McGrath doesn't. Until his pass is at a professional standard he should remain firmly at the periphery of professional rugby. The age profile of Boss and Reddan is an argument to source another 9, not to pretend that with gametime the most basic aspect of McGrath's game can go from fundamentally awful to fundamentally fine. We just dont have the luxury of affording him a run of starts outside of an injury crisis.

Fair enough
I haven't personally seen enough of McGrath to have a fully rounded view of his game.
but if he is as inadequate as people are saying and is unlikely to be ever good enough, simply dump him and promote the academy scrumhalf.

Having said that, even after Murray was properly tried and indeed capped he received plenty criticism with regard to the speed of his passing. Now that has improved with time and experience .

[All Blacks nil]

McGrath's pass is not what we need inside Gopparth. For those who remember pre-Pro rugby, McGrath is almost a carbon copy of Niall Hogan, a great footballer but with a terrible pass who went on to captain Ireland. McGrath needs to keep his head and shoulders down and pass off the ground to a calling out-half, no looks - just pass to the call. Its a fundamental change but if he doesn't correct it now he will never have an international pass to match so many other good parts in his game

I wonder is there a fundamental issue with how he grips the ball? Another feature of his game has been the knock on when picking the ball. Is he too loose when he grabs it? Seems a very odd mistake to happen regularly.

He could do worse than watching this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehHrUCIdWcY

He could do worse than pick Eoin Reddan's brain.

[blockhead]

Will Genia is available after the WC. If we are going to be successful then we need a top class 9/10 axis. Johnny is signed up so lets get him a decent partner.

[outcast eddie]

Will Genia is available after the WC. If we are going to be successful then we need a top class 9/10 axis. Johnny is signed up so lets get him a decent partner.

Nah, for the betterment of the national team we need the first choice half backs playing together regularly. Murray to Leinster, the campaign starts here!

...just stirring the pot!

[blockhead]

Will Genia is available after the WC. If we are going to be successful then we need a top class 9/10 axis. Johnny is signed up so lets get him a decent partner.

Nah, for the betterment of the national team we need the first choice half backs playing together regularly. Murray to Leinster, the campaign starts here!

...just stirring the pot!

Lock up yer daughters!

[artaneboy]

McGrath's pass is not what we need inside Gopparth. For those who remember pre-Pro rugby, McGrath is almost a carbon copy of Niall Hogan, a great footballer but with a terrible pass who went on to captain Ireland. McGrath needs to keep his head and shoulders down and pass off the ground to a calling out-half, no looks - just pass to the call. Its a fundamental change but if he doesn't correct it now he will never have an international pass to match so many other good parts in his game

If we are 'tracing' back here, I think he is closer in resemblance to Michael Bradley. And as a scrum half, that's not good! Bradley was a footballer, he was a leader, he was good at the base, had pace, could link but.... he never could pass a ball consistently accurate or at the necessary speed.

Now Bradley was a man who was anointed early (it was unfairly claimed he had friends in high places) and never developed as a passer and thus- for his other gifts was a very average 9.

[artaneboy]

McGrath need to be given a run of starts ( especially with Reddan unavailable) so that Leinster can properly evaluate his worth. Both the incumbents are in their mid thirties and at the end of their contracts. Has anyone considered that either one or both may retire? Not everyone retires like BOD.
With Pienaar at Ulster an NIQ is not an option. McGrath needs to be properly tried ( as Murray was) as soon as possible. MOC needs to address this issue and not to do so would be a disservice

You "properly try" a guy who has the basics. McGrath doesn't. Until his pass is at a professional standard he should remain firmly at the periphery of professional rugby. The age profile of Boss and Reddan is an argument to source another 9, not to pretend that with gametime the most basic aspect of McGrath's game can go from fundamentally awful to fundamentally fine. We just dont have the luxury of affording him a run of starts outside of an injury crisis.

Have to agree. We haven't had an outstanding SH (i.e. in the top 5 in Europe) in the pro era. Let's try for Genia at least. If McGrath- or Cooney are good enough they're young enough to benefit from two seasons working with a master.

[All Blacks nil]

McGrath need to be given a run of starts ( especially with Reddan unavailable) so that Leinster can properly evaluate his worth. Both the incumbents are in their mid thirties and at the end of their contracts. Has anyone considered that either one or both may retire? Not everyone retires like BOD.
With Pienaar at Ulster an NIQ is not an option. McGrath needs to be properly tried ( as Murray was) as soon as possible. MOC needs to address this issue and not to do so would be a disservice

You "properly try" a guy who has the basics. McGrath doesn't. Until his pass is at a professional standard he should remain firmly at the periphery of professional rugby. The age profile of Boss and Reddan is an argument to source another 9, not to pretend that with gametime the most basic aspect of McGrath's game can go from fundamentally awful to fundamentally fine. We just dont have the luxury of affording him a run of starts outside of an injury crisis.

Have to agree. We haven't had an outstanding SH (i.e. in the top 5 in Europe) in the pro era. Let's try for Genia at least. If McGrath- or Cooney are good enough they're young enough to benefit from two seasons working with a master.

The fact that Pienaar is a NIQ scrumhalf contracted by Ulster, will prevent Leinster or any other province from signing a non-Irish qualified scrumhalf.

It really would be a sad state of affairs to see two out of four provinces, had to rely on NIQ starting scrumhalves. It has been a successful policy for the IRFU (possibly illegal- no non-Irish apply here), and has definitely hastened the breakthrough of numerous players since introduced

[All Blacks nil]

McGrath's pass is not what we need inside Gopparth. For those who remember pre-Pro rugby, McGrath is almost a carbon copy of Niall Hogan, a great footballer but with a terrible pass who went on to captain Ireland. McGrath needs to keep his head and shoulders down and pass off the ground to a calling out-half, no looks - just pass to the call. Its a fundamental change but if he doesn't correct it now he will never have an international pass to match so many other good parts in his game

If we are 'tracing' back here, I think he is closer in resemblance to Michael Bradley. And as a scrum half, that's not good! Bradley was a footballer, he was a leader, he was good at the base, had pace, could link but.... he never could pass a ball consistently accurate or at the necessary speed.

Now Bradley was a man who was anointed early (it was unfairly claimed he had friends in high places) and never developed as a passer and thus- for his other gifts was a very average 9.

Bradley's pass was indeed average, but he was a decent international. The one major difference between McGrath and the likes of Bradley, is that Bradley had a job to go to every morning. McGrath's job is to be a professional rugby player.
If,as many seem to think, his pass is and has been inadequate, his focus should be solely on acquiring the required standard. Like Bradley, he is a decent rugby player, but to cut it as a top level professional as opposed to amateur scrumhalf, it is all about the pass.

[artaneboy]

McGrath's pass is not what we need inside Gopparth. For those who remember pre-Pro rugby, McGrath is almost a carbon copy of Niall Hogan, a great footballer but with a terrible pass who went on to captain Ireland. McGrath needs to keep his head and shoulders down and pass off the ground to a calling out-half, no looks - just pass to the call. Its a fundamental change but if he doesn't correct it now he will never have an international pass to match so many other good parts in his game

If we are 'tracing' back here, I think he is closer in resemblance to Michael Bradley. And as a scrum half, that's not good! Bradley was a footballer, he was a leader, he was good at the base, had pace, could link but.... he never could pass a ball consistently accurate or at the necessary speed.

Now Bradley was a man who was anointed early (it was unfairly claimed he had friends in high places) and never developed as a passer and thus- for his other gifts was a very average 9.

Bradley's pass was indeed average, but he was a decent international. The one major difference between McGrath and the likes of Bradley, is that Bradley had a job to go to every morning. McGrath's job is to be a professional rugby player. If,as many seem to think, his pass is and has been inadequate, his focus should be solely on acquiring the required standard. Like Bradley, he is a decent rugby player, but to cut it as a top level professional scrumhalf, it is all about the pass.

He may have been a "decent rugby player" but he was a below average SH.

[simonokeeffe]

if Connacht (continuously) qualify for Europe we have little chance of nabbing Marmion in 2016

Hopefully McGrath will get the start away to Treviso, not going well we can bring Boss on

[All Blacks nil]

McGrath's pass is not what we need inside Gopparth. For those who remember pre-Pro rugby, McGrath is almost a carbon copy of Niall Hogan, a great footballer but with a terrible pass who went on to captain Ireland. McGrath needs to keep his head and shoulders down and pass off the ground to a calling out-half, no looks - just pass to the call. Its a fundamental change but if he doesn't correct it now he will never have an international pass to match so many other good parts in his game

If we are 'tracing' back here, I think he is closer in resemblance to Michael Bradley. And as a scrum half, that's not good! Bradley was a footballer, he was a leader, he was good at the base, had pace, could link but.... he never could pass a ball consistently accurate or at the necessary speed.

Now Bradley was a man who was anointed early (it was unfairly claimed he had friends in high places) and never developed as a passer and thus- for his other gifts was a very average 9.

cGrat

As said both Bradley and McGrath had/have passing deficiencies. You have listed many of Bradley's qualities above. As someone who played against Bradley on many occasions his physicality was also a major asset. Capped at 21, he was never the complete article, but was the best produced by Ireland in the 80's and 90's. with the honourable exception of Colin Paterson

John Robbie
Robbie McGrath
Tony Doyle
Kieron Campbell
Guy Easterby
Tom Tierney
Ciaran Scally
Conor McGuinness
Brian O'Meara
Niall Hogan
Steve McIvor
Chris Saverimutto
Gus Aherne
Rob Saunders
Alain Rolland
David O'Mahony
There may be a few more but to say Bradley was a "below average SH" when you see what was on offer is hardly correct

[Dave Cahill]

McGraths pass is functional - thats all a scrum halfs pass needs to be.

[Danthefan]

The speed at which he moves the ball makes some compensation for the quality of his pass, he should definitely be persevered with.

If you've a SH with a perfect pass it's not all that much good if he waits until the defence is set to make it.

[artaneboy]

McGrath's pass is not what we need inside Gopparth. For those who remember pre-Pro rugby, McGrath is almost a carbon copy of Niall Hogan, a great footballer but with a terrible pass who went on to captain Ireland. McGrath needs to keep his head and shoulders down and pass off the ground to a calling out-half, no looks - just pass to the call. Its a fundamental change but if he doesn't correct it now he will never have an international pass to match so many other good parts in his game

If we are 'tracing' back here, I think he is closer in resemblance to Michael Bradley. And as a scrum half, that's not good! Bradley was a footballer, he was a leader, he was good at the base, had pace, could link but.... he never could pass a ball consistently accurate or at the necessary speed.

Now Bradley was a man who was anointed early (it was unfairly claimed he had friends in high places) and never developed as a passer and thus- for his other gifts was a very average 9.

cGrat

As said both Bradley and McGrath had/have passing deficiencies. You have listed many of Bradley's qualities above. As someone who played against Bradley on many occasions his physicality was also a major asset. Capped at 21, he was never the complete article, but was the best produced by Ireland in the 80's and 90's. with the honourable exception of Colin Paterson

John Robbie
Robbie McGrath
Tony Doyle
Kieron Campbell
Guy Easterby
Tom Tierney
Ciaran Scally
Conor McGuinness
Brian O'Meara
Niall Hogan
Steve McIvor
Chris Saverimutto
Gus Aherne
Rob Saunders
Alain Rolland
David O'Mahony
There may be a few more but to say Bradley was a "below average SH" when you see what was on offer is hardly correct

That's a list of scrum halves who've played for Ireland- some better, some poorer than Bradley. It doesn't alter the fact that he was not of the standard we needed or wanted- even at the time. That's for Ireland now- Cork Von and Munster may have found him fine to there needs.

We've had two class SHs in my memory, Robbie and Patterson: ironically in the same period. And tragically both finished early- Patterson to injury and Robbie to emigration. Murray may be best since. McGrath needs to improve significantly to be worthy of 'nurturing' and favouring with games.

[artaneboy]

McGraths pass is functional - thats all a scrum halfs pass needs to be.

It is in it's arse all he needs!!! A SH- at least one that plays for one if the best teams in Europe needs a consistently good pass to be worthy of his place.

And what's more- his pass isn't even "functional", but my definition. That would be slow but reasonably accurate. I'd go as far as saying that McGrath's accuracy is worse than any of the SHs we've played in the team over the last decade.

[Dave Cahill]

McGraths pass is functional - thats all a scrum halfs pass needs to be.

It is in it's arse all he needs!!! A SH- at least one that plays for one if the best teams in Europe needs a consistently good pass to be worthy of his place.

Tell that to Joost, Justin Marshall, George Gregan, Mike Phillips - undisputedly amongst the best scrum halfs of all time, each with, at best, functional passes. Pierre Berbizier was the best of his generation without either a pass or a reliable lineout throw-in!


On the other hand, Christian Saverimutto had a pass that made Peter Stringer look like Mick Bradley and indeed even Stringer himself wasn't exactly in the first rank

[ceemec]

The pass is not functional. It hinders his back lines ability to operate effectively. It damaged a strong chance of a try in the first half when Gopperth had take a pass at full stretch and the move was killed. The pic below is of that pass. That's the ball about 10ft in the air, floating towards its target. Earlier in the same move he missed his receiver and it fortunately bounced into Gopperth's arms.




Extremely talented rugby player and, for that reason, he should be afforded a few more starts this season to assess him more completely but his passing is a liability and, if it doesn't sharpen up, he can not become a regular starter.

[ceemec]

Tell that to Joost, Justin Marshall, George Gregan, Mike Phillips - undisputedly amongst the best scrum halfs of all time, each with, at best, functional passes.

And all significantly better than McGrath's.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The pass is not functional. It hinders his back lines ability to operate effectively. It damaged a strong chance of a try in the first half when Gopperth had take a pass at full stretch and the move was killed. The pic below is of that pass. That's the ball about 10ft in the air, floating towards its target. Earlier in the same move he missed his receiver and it fortunately bounced into Gopperth's arms.




Extremely talented rugby player and, for that reason, he should be afforded a few more starts this season to assess him more completely but his passing is a liability and, if it doesn't sharpen up, he can not become a regular starter.

No mention of how far away Gopperth is? How deep he is?

Think that was a big part of the problem on Friday. There were a good few times where Luke got to the ruck and almost looked like he had to reel the ball back in and spin around further to find Gopperth.

With that said, his passing was terrible and there's no way a scrumhalf at that level should throw a pass like that. I'm not sayin that was the only issue and it needs serious work. I'd forgive him for knocking on at the back of the ruck because it looked to me like an Edinburgh hand/foot came through. People said it was his own player hanging onto it but I don't think so. He also had a lovely flick back inside and made one brilliant covering catch behind our try line which I don't think have been mentioned either. There's no doubt his speed to the breakdown compensates somewhat for his poor passing. His breaking threat also ties in defenders and affords Jimmy more time. I also think it's noticeable how we get more go forward around the fringes when he's on. Plus he puts in a serious shift in defence, really hungry to stop attackers on the gainline, covering any gaps in behind, and even to get over the ball.

Basically what I'm saying is that his passing is not catastrophically detrimental to his all round game. It was also his first start this season. Actually, was it his first start under MOC? He's clearly going to be rusty in that case.

His passing needs to improve hugely, I'm not blind to that, but I don't like the way he's being written off when there are mitigating factors, when he's so young, and when his replacement on Friday knocked on twice and threw one pass to the floor, none of which have been mentioned.

Its also not about saying how great or how poor he is. His passing is now so poor that I have doubts about how good he could be in terms of an international regular etc, but that's not to say that we should give up on him in a Leinster context now. To my mind he's still a better option than Boss. People can disagree with that, but I've no doubt that I'd at least prefer Luke on the bench to Boss when Reddan starts. I'm convinced that we'll have a really good player if we trust him and build his confidence.

I think the fixation on his passing isn't healthy for anyone. Adding consistency to a part of his game that we know CAN be good is a lot easier to do (with game time and confidence) than trying to add something that isn't there in the first place. I think we're ignoring the bigger picture, and that's both good and bad. For example, I think the worst thing he did on Friday was miss touch when we turned the ball over near our own line having been severely under the cosh but not sure it's been mentioned yet.