Castres v. Leinster

[molloyjh]

I was at that game in Bath and it was a bad performance, JS certainly wouldn't have been happy with it, MOC probably would though!

MOC has said post match he was happy with the performance hasn't he?

[curates_egg]

They are third from bottom at the moment in fairness. Their form has been awful and they've been leaking tries to beat the band. Sure their home form has been ok, but they were without Diarra and Kockett from their starting line-up. I'm not sure you can compare the 23 from Sunday to the Castres team of last year, and you certainly can't compare them to the Castres team from 2 seasons ago. These guys are not going to win the Top14 this year, and will probably struggle to stay out of the relegation battle.

That's not to say we should have torn them asunder. But we should have been able to create a few scoring opportunities. We created none. We got ourselves into their half and ultimately relied on them conceding penalties to win because we had absolutely nothing else in our locker. Against Bath in the Rec we were poor, but it was a different kind of poor. We created opportunities and failed to convert them. That in itself was not the norm for us, it was just a bad day at the office. We created nothing at all on Sunday. Even factoring in the differences in personnel that's a worry IMO.

You're wasting your time trying to convince Pravda.

For what it's worth, I thought the first half was our best performance of the season. We strung coherent phases together and looked like we had a coherent plan. Most importantly, our error count seemed much lower.
We were never going to get many tries against, what was, a very committed and organised (and offside) defensive line but we definitely never looked like scoring a try and that is certainly a worry for when we come up against other outfits (and that was not a vintage Castres side for sure).

Would it have been different with different half-backs? I would say definitely.
Most major media pundits are now openly baying for Gopperth's demotion, which is pretty striking (and a bit unfair on the bloke, who has clearly been a good player for us).
I thought Boss actually put in one of his better shifts of 2014 but it unfortunately just seemed to be a season too much for him and the distribution was too slow (and he didn't offer any real threat). That said, we can't play Reddan in every game and I would not have wanted to see McGrath playing on Sunday.
However, one thing that struck me was that we were over-loading some of the attacking rucks, which deprived us of any chance of quick ball on the next phase. I am not sure if this was deliberate but it should have been adjusted.

[ceemec]

We might have played with great attacking intent in Bath but it was not a good showing. It was hugely inaccurate, littered with errors and gifting them possession.

We won the game essentially due to a moment of idiocy by Louw and were losing in the last 10 minutes. I don't know how people claim we destroyed them and did not score a single point in the first 40 minutes. We had some lovely line breaks but we were generally very mediocre that day.

[Dave Cahill]

No one ever takes Castres seriously for some reason, despite them winning and finishing runners up in the T14 in the last two years

They are third from bottom at the moment in fairness. Their form has been awful and they've been leaking tries to beat the band. Sure their home form has been ok, but they were without Diarra and Kockett from their starting line-up. I'm not sure you can compare the 23 from Sunday to the Castres team of last year, and you certainly can't compare them to the Castres team from 2 seasons ago. These guys are not going to win the Top14 this year, and will probably struggle to stay out of the relegation battle.

That's not to say we should have torn them asunder. But we should have been able to create a few scoring opportunities. We created none. We got ourselves into their half and ultimately relied on them conceding penalties to win because we had absolutely nothing else in our locker. Against Bath in the Rec we were poor, but it was a different kind of poor. We created opportunities and failed to convert them. That in itself was not the norm for us, it was just a bad day at the office. We created nothing at all on Sunday. Even factoring in the differences in personnel that's a worry IMO.

And last year after 9 matches they were fourth from bottom. The only difference being a home loss to Stade Francais in the first game of the season, when IIRC none of their star players started.

[HUDSOC]

We might have played with great attacking intent in Bath but it was not a good showing. It was hugely inaccurate, littered with errors and gifting them possession.

We won the game essentially due to a moment of idiocy by Louw and were losing in the last 10 minutes. I don't know how people claim we destroyed them and did not score a single point in the first 40 minutes. We had some lovely line breaks but we were generally very mediocre that day.

Don't disagree that it certainly wasn't a flawless performance (the Bath game) but as you say yourself that attacking intent was there.Actually what stands out in my mind was RK completely butchering a try but the point is we were creating such opportunities which we don't appear to be now,and certainly not last sunday and despite all that possession.
Whatever the reasons (some obvious) or excuses for this (as debated ad nauseam eslsewhere) for me that is the essential differnce between how we were playing a couple of seasons back in that Bath game and the performance last sunday.

Sorry - as rightly pointed out in other posts,that particular try buthcering was down to SOB rather than RK.Or maybe they were both up to it that day,can't quite recall ? Anyhow my central point remains.

[molloyjh]

However, one thing that struck me was that we were over-loading some of the attacking rucks, which deprived us of any chance of quick ball on the next phase. I am not sure if this was deliberate but it should have been adjusted.

This was something I flagged elsewhere. Our resourcing of the ruck this season has been really poor. For the last few weeks we've been under-resourcing, be that through too few players committed or the wrong ones (or a bit of both). We've been putting players like Fanning and Kirchner into rucks against opposition second and back rows. When we get forwards in there it's generally after a second or two when it's too late. Ball has either been turned over or defenders have caused enough hassle to slow our ball down.

On Sunday, as you said, we massively over-resourced our rucks, leaving us short of numbers outside. Castres happily committed 1 or 2 men to our 4 or 5. We made such a mess of the breakdown ourselves that any ball coming back was slow ball. This allowed Castres to set their defensive line and also have the numbers. We made it so easy to defend against us on Sunday.

And last year after 9 matches they were fourth from bottom. The only difference being a home loss to Stade Francais in the first game of the season, when IIRC none of their star players started.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that. In all honesty I was never expecting anything other than a tight and difficult game. And had you given me that scoreline before-hand I'd have bitten your hand off for it. Like a number of games last season I'm happy enough with the result but I'm concerned with the manner in which we got it. Despite having the number of injuries we had I still would have thought we could have threatened their line. I'm not talking about running in a load of tries, or even scoring one at all. I'd just like to think we could have shown a bit more than we did. The ruck thing being one of my biggest frustrations at the moment. With the likes of McGrath, Cronin, Toner, Douglas, Ruddock and Heaslip in the pack there's no reason we can't be effectively resourcing our rucks. Yet we've really struggled to do that all season.

[Dave Cahill]

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that. In all honesty I was never expecting anything other than a tight and difficult game. And had you given me that scoreline before-hand I'd have bitten your hand off for it.

Oh me too, away wins in france are to be treasured! It just irks me I guess to see people getting all excited over the likes of Clermont and totally dismiss a team that actually wins things like Castres. Even comparing them to Bath is actually a bit ridiculous. The season we played Bath they finished 8th out of 12 in the Aviva Premiership - the same position Connacht finished in the Pro12 that season. Castres were beaten in the semi final of the Top14 by the eventual champions, before going on to win it the following season and finish as runners up the season after that (last season). Perhaps the reason we had so many chances against Bath that year compared to against Castres this year is that Castres currently are better than Bath were and by some considerable distance.

[molloyjh]

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that. In all honesty I was never expecting anything other than a tight and difficult game. And had you given me that scoreline before-hand I'd have bitten your hand off for it.

Oh me too, away wins in france are to be treasured! It just irks me I guess to see people getting all excited over the likes of Clermont and totally dismiss a team that actually wins things like Castres. Even comparing them to Bath is actually a bit ridiculous. The season we played Bath they finished 8th out of 12 in the Aviva Premiership - the same position Connacht finished in the Pro12 that season. Castres were beaten in the semi final of the Top14 by the eventual champions, before going on to win it the following season and finish as runners up the season after that (last season). Perhaps the reason we had so many chances against Bath that year compared to against Castres this year is that Castres currently are better than Bath were and by some considerable distance.

I'd agree with that. But then we were all pretty disgusted with our performance in the Rec and felt we should have had a few tries that day. Which we absolutely should have. I would always have expected us to beat Bath away over and above Castres. And again, the overall result on Sunday was great. It's a funny position to be in, but I've been in it for a while. Happy with the results and concerned over performances. I suppose I just think that if you get the performance right the result will look after itself more often than not. If you don't have the performances to back up your results then at some point that will surely come back to bite you in the ass.

[Edna Kenny]

Pretty sure if you put Nacewa, Sexton, BOD (although he didn't play against Bath), RK15, SOB, Ross, Healy into that team on Sunday it might have been a more comfortable game. It's like we expect Leinster to just be brilliant all the time no matter what team we field. There's a reason that performance drops when world class players are missing, they make things happen in games. I think we're doing ok considering everything. We have also lost Jonno Gibbs from the set-up as well. It's great to have high standards and I'm sure the squad have the highest expectations of themselves but we need a bit of realism. Lots of work to be done but all things considered it could be a hell of a lot worse.

[molloyjh]

Pretty sure if you put Nacewa, Sexton, BOD (although he didn't play against Bath), RK15, SOB, Ross, Healy into that team on Sunday it might have been a more comfortable game. It's like we expect Leinster to just be brilliant all the time no matter what team we field. There's a reason that performance drops when world class players are missing, they make things happen in games. I think we're doing ok considering everything. We have also lost Jonno Gibbs from the set-up as well. It's great to have high standards and I'm sure the squad have the highest expectations of themselves but we need a bit of realism. Lots of work to be done but all things considered it could be a hell of a lot worse.

I don't think anyone (at least anyone in their right mind) expects 2011/12 levels of performance at all. There's no doubt that without the injury concerns it would have been a different prospect. But I still think we could be playing better, or perhaps it's best to say more effectively, even with the squad we have.

[kendalgerty]

The game in Bath swung when we brought on Eoin O'Malley. We dominated them for most of the game in spite of playing ordinary stuff, but kept letting them off the hook. O'Malley unlocked the door and we scampered up the pitch to score the match-winning penalty after he put somebody through a gap. We were playing with Darce and McFadden in the centre and it was all a bit blinkered, O'Malley's distribution made a big difference.

[Tricky Dicky]

I mean, watch this "awful" performance again. I wish we played that badly every week.

And if we had those players every week, we might

If you take out the bits with Sexton, Nacewa and O'Brien, how long is the video? Only four players started both games, only two from Sunday started that seasons final.

All that video does is highlight the paucity of the performance, because at the end of the day, a better Leinster team expended a lot of energy against a worse opposition to achieve pretty much the same result in the same manner! We won with six penalties.

Yes we had better players in 2011/2012, but it's not as if we just shovelled the ball out to Sexton, Nacewa or O'Brien back then, and hoped that they'd pull out a bit of magic. We actually had a great attacking framework that would allow players to be dangerous - a framework that I think would still work with the likes of Gopperth, Fanning and Kirchner subbed in

O'Driscoll was anonymous for Leinster last year, but very good in the 6N, especially against Italy, because he was in a good attacking system. No one expects Leinster to be as rapier sharp as they were under Schmidt, but are you seriously saying that that dross at the weekend should be the height of this Leinster backline's creative ability?

[All Blacks nil]

After a few excellent replacement performances, I was a little disappointed with Kane Douglas as a starter. On his first start (I may be mistaken about that) i expected more.

Statistically as bad as it can get.

1 Carry for 0 metres
1 knock on
2 successful tackles 1 unsuccessful
1 lineout won (same as Kirchener - lol)

Including lineouts he touched the ball 4 times in 56 minutes and attempted 3 tackles. In a game where Leinster had 60% plus possession you would expect a guy to contribute more than that.
What was he doing?

Of course he could have been doing unseen work!!!

Very little said about a very quiet performance

[simonokeeffe]

one of those tackles won a turnover, lets be optimistic

he does seem a little uncoordinated at this level ie against equally big guys
at Pro12 level he gets away with steaming into everything with brute force and ignorance but he has a few technical things to work on in way he tackles but especially at breakdown

[neiliog93]

Kane's 2 successful tackles were both big hits, but in coming months we'll certainly expect more than that.

As for comparing this match to others under Joe....I think the main point is that attacking ineptitude was the exception under Joe, whereas it's the norm under MOC (against good teams). Potent attacking against good teams was the norm under Joe, and it's the exception under MOC.

[Not_Today]

Tbh, I think Douglas needs to be careful how he enters a ruck, he'll get penalised at least and possibly carded is he's not careful.

[All Blacks nil]

Kane's 2 successful tackles were both big hits, but in coming months we'll certainly expect more than that.

As for comparing this match to others under Joe....I think the main point is that attacking ineptitude was the exception under Joe, whereas it's the norm under MOC (against good teams). Potent attacking against good teams was the norm under Joe, and it's the exception under MOC.

Well he had 28 minutes each to summon up the energy to perform those hits.
Toner's elevation to starting second row at international level was primarily due to his increased work rate. Mick McC put in a lot more energetic shift and a lot more hits than Douglas in his 24 minutes .

As I said , I was disappointed with his first start, but will obviously give him another chance while he integrates into the squad. A bit more hustle needed though

[fourthirtythree]

I was concerned by Ruddock and his decreasing impact. He tackled seldom (okay, we had the ball but I want my no.6 around the top) carried to little effect, and I wonder if he is another playing through injury.

I don't recall a particular injury that he got. I don't know, bit of illness taking some of his power away?

[Tricky Dicky]

After a few excellent replacement performances, I was a little disappointed with Kane Douglas as a starter. On his first start (I may be mistaken about that) i expected more.

Statistically as bad as it can get.

1 Carry for 0 metres
1 knock on
2 successful tackles 1 unsuccessful
1 lineout won (same as Kirchener - lol)

Including lineouts he touched the ball 4 times in 56 minutes and attempted 3 tackles. In a game where Leinster had 60% plus possession you would expect a guy to contribute more than that.
What was he doing?

Of course he could have been doing unseen work!!!

Very little said about a very quiet performance

Those stats don't make him look too good. Maybe he was spending all his time clearing out in rucks?

[fourthirtythree]

Ruddocks were as bad. Well he attempted one more tackle but he missed it.

I'm more worried about his recent form than Douglas's. For Douglas starting with everyone fit in the European cup is ahead of schedule. And he did earn the opportunity, just didn't take it.