Time to go MOC

[Logorrhea]

Why do so many people seem happy to acknowledge that MOC has lost some of our most influential players (Johnny, Isa, Sean and Luke) before they proceed to argue that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players that have left? Its bizarre.

Put Johnny back in at 10 and half of our problems go away. The problem is though MOC hasn't got a Johnny to work with, hes got Madigan and Gopperth, neither of which are currently playing to the standard that he, or we, want.

[Donny B.]

Why do so many people seem happy to acknowledge that MOC has lost some of our most influential players (Johnny, Isa, Sean and Luke) before they proceed to argue that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players that have left? Its bizarre.

Sorry, haven't got time to re-read the whole thread, but who exactly is arguing that point?

[enby]

OK the season is not quite over but it almost is and there has been enough time to evaluate the progress of the younger players. There is no doubt that some of the forwards are further along the track than this time last year- Jordi, Moore, McGrath and I'd include Toner- but I can't think of a single back that has made significant progress unless you include Fanning. The likes of Madigan, Macken, Hudson, Cooney and Luke McGrath have not pushed on at all and that is something that the coach must bear responsibility for. We are no closer to replacing the 2 lads at 12/13 than we were this time last year and the failure to develop a young scrum half is unacceptable. Serious and immediate focus needs to be applied by MOC to this area if he wants to end up as other than a transitional figure

[Logorrhea]

Why do so many people seem happy to acknowledge that MOC has lost some of our most influential players (Johnny, Isa, Sean and Luke) before they proceed to argue that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players that have left? Its bizarre.

Sorry, haven't got time to re-read the whole thread, but who exactly is arguing that point?

We have this "Time to go MOC" thread, a "How Confident you'll be that MOC will be a success" thread (which is another MOC out thread), "a what do we need for 2015" thread and a couple of match threads (Ospreys and Toulon) that have dominated conversation on this forum for the past 3-2 weeks. All of which you have been active in so I presume you have read. You know exactly what point I'm making and why.

I'm no fan of MOC, I'm yet to be convinced hes the answer but he hasn't been given a fair shake of the stick. Joe inherited a HEC winning team, MOC Inherited an Amlin winning team, immediately lost 3-4 of his best players and is getting tanked for it.

[Peg Leg]

OK the season is not quite over but it almost is and there has been enough time to evaluate the progress of the younger players. There is no doubt that some of the forwards are further along the track than this time last year- Jordi, Moore, McGrath and I'd include Toner- but I can't think of a single back that has made significant progress unless you include Fanning. The likes of Madigan, Macken, Hudson, Cooney and Luke McGrath have not pushed on at all and that is something that the coach must bear responsibility for. We are no closer to replacing the 2 lads at 12/13 than we were this time last year and the failure to develop a young scrum half is unacceptable. Serious and immediate focus needs to be applied by MOC to this area if he wants to end up as other than a transitional figure

Reid

[jezzer]

Some specifics:

1) Our starter plays have vanished.
2) Our backline depth is killing us. It's awful when Gopperth plays and just bad when Madigan plays.
3) We've stopped running decoys through the middle to disguise our lines. We're resorting instead to popped inside passes or working it through the hands, which brings us to...
4) Our handling has gone to shite. Our ability to fix defenders and pass into space has fallen off a cliff. This - more than anything else - is Leinster's hallmark and whatever you think about winning ugly is is unforgivable that we ever become a team who can't straighten the line and play the next guy in to space.
5) Our lineout has become very sloppy. It's another indication of a team that's not focussed on being accurate.
6) Our defensive alignment is actually very good imo, but we are falling off tackles at times. I'm reluctant to be too harsh on MOC for our defence, because overall I think it's improved over last season.
7) While we're missing our best ball-carrier, we still have plenty of them but we're playing them at first receiver and running no trailers off them for offloads. We're very static off first receiver no matter who the carrier is.
While the execution of our kicking game is on the halfbacks and Kearney, the choice of when and how to kick is part of the gameplanning and we've gotten it very wrong at times this season. Ospreys is a good example. We know we can manage their pack and their midfield, defensively speaking, but instead we chose short box kicks and garryowens to allow Fussell and the wings come onto the high ball with momentum and break the gainline repeatedly. The more we fed Fussell and co, the more Os grew into the game. Our kicking plan against Toulon was similarly poorly thought-out.

Please feel free to disagree with any of these or add to them. I'd be interested to hear how anybody will disagree with them because the same issues keep cropping up all through the season.

I don't believe Matt O'Connor is an awful coach. I don't think it's because he came from the AP that we're struggling. I do think he threw the baby out with the bathwater to an extent in an attempt to stamp his own mark and - dare I say - personality on the team after taking over from Joe The Redeemeer. He'd have been better off with a judicious dollop of light-touch regulation in his first season, but how many Aussies following after Kiwis are going to do that??!!

[hugonaut]

OK the season is not quite over but it almost is and there has been enough time to evaluate the progress of the younger players. There is no doubt that some of the forwards are further along the track than this time last year- Jordi, Moore, McGrath and I'd include Toner- but I can't think of a single back that has made significant progress unless you include Fanning. The likes of Madigan, Macken, Hudson, Cooney and Luke McGrath have not pushed on at all and that is something that the coach must bear responsibility for. We are no closer to replacing the 2 lads at 12/13 than we were this time last year and the failure to develop a young scrum half is unacceptable. Serious and immediate focus needs to be applied by MOC to this area if he wants to end up as other than a transitional figure

Reid

Yeah, Reider has done well this year. He has played in games against three of the five best sides in the league [Ulster, Glasgow, Ospreys] and held his own. Makes far fewer mistakes than he used to and has picked up the habit of scoring tries. He turns 24 at the end of this season, so if you compare him to Ferg [who turned 24 at the end of the 2009-10 season] he's plotting a similar course.

Ferg was 18+7 with 3 tries, 7 cons, 25 pens at 23/24 years old; Reid is 18+11 with 6 tries and no kicks, but he has kicked in the past for the 'A' team. Sure, he need to keep improving like Ferg did, but he has made a really significant improvement from this time last season.

[Donny B.]

Why do so many people seem happy to acknowledge that MOC has lost some of our most influential players (Johnny, Isa, Sean and Luke) before they proceed to argue that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players that have left? Its bizarre.

Sorry, haven't got time to re-read the whole thread, but who exactly is arguing that point?

We have this "Time to go MOC" thread, a "How Confident you'll be that MOC will be a success" thread (which is another MOC out thread), "a what do we need for 2015" thread and a couple of match threads (Ospreys and Toulon) that have dominated conversation on this forum for the past 3-2 weeks. All of which you have been active in so I presume you have read. You know exactly what point I'm making and why.

I'm no fan of MOC, I'm yet to be convinced hes the answer but he hasn't been given a fair shake of the stick. Joe inherited a HEC winning team, MOC Inherited an Amlin winning team, immediately lost 3-4 of his best players and is getting tanked for it.

That's all well and good but who is arguing "that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players"? I don't think anyone blames MOC for Sexton leaving.

And strictly speaking, Joe inherited a team that had won nothing the previous season. Unless of course, you count the previous season, in which case they both inherited HC winning teams.

[alanair]

OK the season is not quite over but it almost is and there has been enough time to evaluate the progress of the younger players. There is no doubt that some of the forwards are further along the track than this time last year- Jordi, Moore, McGrath and I'd include Toner- but I can't think of a single back that has made significant progress unless you include Fanning. The likes of Madigan, Macken, Hudson, Cooney and Luke McGrath have not pushed on at all and that is something that the coach must bear responsibility for. We are no closer to replacing the 2 lads at 12/13 than we were this time last year and the failure to develop a young scrum half is unacceptable. Serious and immediate focus needs to be applied by MOC to this area if he wants to end up as other than a transitional figure

Reid

Yeah, Reider has done well this year. He has played in games against three of the five best sides in the league [Ulster, Glasgow, Ospreys] and held his own. Makes far fewer mistakes than he used to and has picked up the habit of scoring tries. He turns 24 at the end of this season, so if you compare him to Ferg [who turned 24 at the end of the 2009-10 season] he's plotting a similar course.

Ferg was 18+7 with 3 tries, 7 cons, 25 pens at 23/24 years old; Reid is 18+11 with 6 tries and no kicks, but he has kicked in the past for the 'A' team. Sure, he need to keep improving like Ferg did, but he has made a really significant improvement from this time last season.

Reid is ok for Rabo... but not sure he will step up to the grade necessary for Europe

[molloyjh]

Some specifics:

1) Our starter plays have vanished.
2) Our backline depth is killing us. It's awful when Gopperth plays and just bad when Madigan plays.
3) We've stopped running decoys through the middle to disguise our lines. We're resorting instead to popped inside passes or working it through the hands, which brings us to...
4) Our handling has gone to shite. Our ability to fix defenders and pass into space has fallen off a cliff. This - more than anything else - is Leinster's hallmark and whatever you think about winning ugly is is unforgivable that we ever become a team who can't straighten the line and play the next guy in to space.
5) Our lineout has become very sloppy. It's another indication of a team that's not focussed on being accurate.
6) Our defensive alignment is actually very good imo, but we are falling off tackles at times. I'm reluctant to be too harsh on MOC for our defence, because overall I think it's improved over last season.
7) While we're missing our best ball-carrier, we still have plenty of them but we're playing them at first receiver and running no trailers off them for offloads. We're very static off first receiver no matter who the carrier is.
While the execution of our kicking game is on the halfbacks and Kearney, the choice of when and how to kick is part of the gameplanning and we've gotten it very wrong at times this season. Ospreys is a good example. We know we can manage their pack and their midfield, defensively speaking, but instead we chose short box kicks and garryowens to allow Fussell and the wings come onto the high ball with momentum and break the gainline repeatedly. The more we fed Fussell and co, the more Os grew into the game. Our kicking plan against Toulon was similarly poorly thought-out.

Please feel free to disagree with any of these or add to them. I'd be interested to hear how anybody will disagree with them because the same issues keep cropping up all through the season.

I don't believe Matt O'Connor is an awful coach. I don't think it's because he came from the AP that we're struggling. I do think he threw the baby out with the bathwater to an extent in an attempt to stamp his own mark and - dare I say - personality on the team after taking over from Joe The Redeemeer. He'd have been better off with a judicious dollop of light-touch regulation in his first season, but how many Aussies following after Kiwis are going to do that??!!

I would like to direct Logorrhea to read this post specifically. The reasons for the issues. i.e. whether it does have to do with trying to stamp his authority on the side, I'm not sure on but the list of issues described above is exactly what most of us are frustrated and worried about. Not this imaginary "squad has disimproved and we're all mad at MOC about it" nonsense. There are real and genuine issues with our game at the moment. Sexton missing didn't force Boss to pass to Toners shin at the weekend. Isa not being there had nothing to do with Cronins 3 or 4 missed tackles in the first half. Sean O'Briens injury isn't the reason players can't seem to hold onto the ball past third phase.

There was always going to be a dip in performance and most rational and reasonable people both knew and expected this. What we didn't expect, and what we're concerned about, is the fact that our performances have dipped farther than we believe they should have. Simples.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

So do you think MOC told Boss to pass to Toner's shin then?

[molloyjh]

So do you think MOC told Boss to pass to Toner's shin then?

Oh dear Lord, really!? Is this how we're going to debate this? Because if so I'm out.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Excellent. One down, how many left?

[Donny B.]

So do you think MOC told Boss to pass to Toner's shin then?

To be fair, Toner's shins are were most people have their hands, so I'll forgive MOC for that one!

[jezzer]

So do you think MOC told Boss to pass to Toner's shin then?

So you disagree with the list then, Le Roux?

How do you see the games this season? I'm not talking about the scoreboard, I'm talking about what's happening on the pitch. What's going on, right or wrong? Who's responsible for the right and who's responsible for the wrong?

Let's get out from behind the verbal jousting and talk about rugby matches.

[molloyjh]

So do you think MOC told Boss to pass to Toner's shin then?

So you disagree with the list then, Le Roux?

How do you see the games this season? I'm not talking about the scoreboard, I'm talking about what's happening on the pitch. What's going on, right or wrong? Who's responsible for the right and who's responsible for the wrong?

Let's get out from behind the verbal jousting and talk about rugby matches.

It seems with some here verbal jousting and deliberate misrepresentation is the norm. He responded directly to a post that highlighted the fact that your points were what we should be addressing. His response was to not address them and instead make a flippant remark unrelated to anything anyone here said. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Logorrhea]

That's all well and good but who is arguing "that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players"? I don't think anyone blames MOC for Sexton leaving.

Ahhh sorry I see what you mean. I wasn't clear. What I mean is that people acknowledge that the players have left, but then proceed to blame MOC that their leaving has had a negative impact on the team and its performance. Its as if the failure to compensate for the loss of such talent, is a failure in the coach.

[neiliog93]

That's all well and good but who is arguing "that its MOCs fault that we are actually missing those players"? I don't think anyone blames MOC for Sexton leaving.

Ahhh sorry I see what you mean. I wasn't clear. What I mean is that people acknowledge that the players have left, but then proceed to blame MOC that their leaving has had a negative impact on the team and its performance. Its as if the failure to compensate for the loss of such talent, is a failure in the coach.

I wouldn't blame MOC for that but I would blame him for not getting the best out of the players who are still here.

[johng]

Some specifics:

1) Our starter plays have vanished.
2) Our backline depth is killing us. It's awful when Gopperth plays and just bad when Madigan plays.
3) We've stopped running decoys through the middle to disguise our lines. We're resorting instead to popped inside passes or working it through the hands, which brings us to...
4) Our handling has gone to shite. Our ability to fix defenders and pass into space has fallen off a cliff. This - more than anything else - is Leinster's hallmark and whatever you think about winning ugly is is unforgivable that we ever become a team who can't straighten the line and play the next guy in to space.
5) Our lineout has become very sloppy. It's another indication of a team that's not focussed on being accurate.
6) Our defensive alignment is actually very good imo, but we are falling off tackles at times. I'm reluctant to be too harsh on MOC for our defence, because overall I think it's improved over last season.
7) While we're missing our best ball-carrier, we still have plenty of them but we're playing them at first receiver and running no trailers off them for offloads. We're very static off first receiver no matter who the carrier is.
While the execution of our kicking game is on the halfbacks and Kearney, the choice of when and how to kick is part of the gameplanning and we've gotten it very wrong at times this season. Ospreys is a good example. We know we can manage their pack and their midfield, defensively speaking, but instead we chose short box kicks and garryowens to allow Fussell and the wings come onto the high ball with momentum and break the gainline repeatedly. The more we fed Fussell and co, the more Os grew into the game. Our kicking plan against Toulon was similarly poorly thought-out.

Please feel free to disagree with any of these or add to them. I'd be interested to hear how anybody will disagree with them because the same issues keep cropping up all through the season.

I don't believe Matt O'Connor is an awful coach. I don't think it's because he came from the AP that we're struggling. I do think he threw the baby out with the bathwater to an extent in an attempt to stamp his own mark and - dare I say - personality on the team after taking over from Joe The Redeemeer. He'd have been better off with a judicious dollop of light-touch regulation in his first season, but how many Aussies following after Kiwis are going to do that??!!

Ah! Look, a man making cogent arguments about the specifics of our game. Stone him!!

Eh... sorry. I mean I agree with the vast majority of it. Rather than pick out the 10% I don't agree with I say....

Bravo. more of this type of stuff!

Hope ti fock that Matt learns from playing with his personal lego set of Leinster players and comes up with some answers.

Perfectly prepared to give him next season to do so. Be nice to make a Rabo final this year at least though. Looks like it could well be a home one.....

[LeRouxIsPHat]

No I don't disagree with most of it jezzer. One thing I do disagree with is the lineout. It let us down last week but generally it's been good and much improved on last year. I've said plenty of times what my issues are, many of which you mentioned. I'm not happy with how we're performing but I just think that our issues are being wildly exaggerated and that threads like this are distasteful in the circumstances.

My main gripes (in terms of what MOC can fix) are...

- The issues at ten. He needs to stick with one and we need to kick less, notwithstanding the fact that we look clueless after a few phases we have still looked better with ball in hand than just kicking it away aimlessly. I also believe that the more we hang onto the ball the better support play etc will get.

- How deep Jimmy is allowed to stand and how awful the shape outside him has been too. Very very simple to fix so why hasn't it happened?

- More creativity in midfield in terms of decoys and bringing in the back three. Rob has looked really hungry to get on the ball but that seems to be down to his own desire rather than any kind of structure. Ferg is a slight exception but our other wingers rarely run off the ten. In fairness to DK and particularly Luke, they do try and make things happen off the centres but it's not enough.

- We're just way too lateral. Again, very easy to fix so why hasn't it happened? The players should be receiving bollockings for this but they should be taking responsibility themselves too, it's just so basic.

- More trust in certain players. Any of the 9s outside of Reddan and then Madigan spring to mind. I think the lack of faith has to affect their confidence. I don't think his selections could lead to a happy squad. Jennings starting the last three games springs to mind. Ryan played really well against Munster and we lack ball carriers, yet no sign of him against the Ospreys. I know there were valid reasons for picking Jennings but in general I don't think MOC gets the balance right when he mixes things up. Signing Tuquiri and playing him ahead of guys who had done quite well is another example. It's not like he was Brad Thorn, he was useless.

The missed tackles are only a very recent thing and, whilst it's very worrying, you can't blame MOC for that. You also can't blame him for our handling being so poor. As others have said, he has improved plenty of players in the squad and for me our set piece is much better than it was. I was very very happy with our HC progress. There was a blip against Northampton but compared to last year we were just much much better. I was more annoyed at Joe for not learning from that loss for the England game than I was at MOC for losing against Northampton. We also had plenty of awful performances under Joe and I don't care what anyone says, you couldn't look at a game like the loss in Connacht and say that there were green shoots or things that we were implementing that would come good in time. It was a garbage performance but MOC isn't being given similar leeway despite getting us to the HC QF and being first in the Rabo. The argument about the league being so poor doesn't really wash with me. Regardless of it being poor, we're top.

I don't think he's learning from his mistakes and that is a worry, but the only really bad games from MOC's POV have been the last three imo. I'm looking for an improvement between now and the end of the season and to then see what he can do with a couple of new signings and SOB returning.

It's not that I think he should be beyond criticism, just think it's all OTT and that the players are getting an easy ride in all this.