Time to go MOC

[molloyjh]

A backline of DK, Luke (maybe T'eo might make it), Reid(Darcy back-up), Madigan, McGrath/Reddan. Kirchner and RK is not experimentation. It's the best we have. Bring it on.

I don't disagree with that.

[simonokeeffe]

the problem with injuries is the senior players/leaders are largely not involved in matchdays or away with Ireland: RK, Healy, SOB 3 main ones but also Strauss, Ruddock, McFadden

McGrath, Furlong, Bent, Douglas, McCarthy, Conan, Dippy probably Cronin all either too new (to first team) to push for anything, Toner, Ross, and Locky probably too quiet
Gopperth, Fanning, Kirchner, M McGrath, Te'o all owe their loyalty to MOC, Reid, Macken too peripheral, Boss playing poorly but still being picked a lot

So in pack only looking at Jennings (who has been injured for ages) aside from Heaslip to do anything, but as captain Heaslip's job is to keep things together
In backs Reddan, Darcy, maybe Luke

Hard to agitate for change with just 3 or 4 senior players and the internationals wont want any distractions come 6 nations time

best I can see there is senior players/internationals having a meeting after 6n/if and or when we have nothing left to play for

[All Blacks nil]

96 pages and well on its way to 2000 contributions. That is some discussion. The quality has been mixed but it has been fun. Now the man is gone it is time to say goodbye. Time to move to other threads to discuss the future and leave DK in the past. It appears he has a teaching job to go back to but I would suggest to the school that they do not let him near their rugby team.

History will judge him and I live in hope that we can win a few GS in the next few years so that his does not become a story of legend and a play down in the bogs. He always appeared to be a decent honest man but I think he suffered from being elevated to a job just beyond his ability.

Good luck to him in whatever he does as long as it has nothing to do with Leinster or Irish rugby. He had his time now it is passed.

It took DK fourteen months. After only eight months, MOC is well ahead of schedule.

[hugonaut]

the problem with injuries is the senior players/leaders are largely not involved in matchdays or away with Ireland: RK, Healy, SOB 3 main ones but also Strauss, Ruddock, McFadden

McGrath, Furlong, Bent, Douglas, McCarthy, Conan, Dippy probably Cronin all either too new (to first team) to push for anything, Toner, Ross, and Locky probably too quiet
Gopperth, Fanning, Kirchner, M McGrath, Te'o all owe their loyalty to MOC, Reid, Macken too peripheral, Boss playing poorly but still being picked a lot

So in pack only looking at Jennings (who has been injured for ages) aside from Heaslip to do anything, but as captain Heaslip's job is to keep things together
In backs Reddan, Darcy, maybe Luke

Hard to agitate for change with just 3 or 4 senior players and the internationals wont want any distractions come 6 nations time

best I can see there is senior players/internationals having a meeting after 6n/if and or when we have nothing left to play for

Yeah, I wouldn't be putting much hope in a "players' revolt" or anything like it.

Personally speaking, I think that there are a lot of guys in our squad who are much more interested in performing for Ireland than they are for Leinster this year – the opposite of the supposed 'Munster by the Grace of God' syndrome that Rob Kearney brought up in Enfield in December 2008. I think that there's a lot of loyalty to Joe Schmidt ahead of Matt O'Connor amongst the guys who have been capped for Ireland in the Leinster ranks – which is a lot of them – and in a world cup year, there's an obvious emphasis on the national team over the provincial teams.

When you consider all the guys who were massively successful at Leinster with Schmidt and must have felt like they had under-performed [or been sidelined, in Reddan's case] with Ireland under Kidney for a number of years – Healy, Ross, Heaslip, O'Brien, Reddan, D'Arcy, Ferg, Rob Kearney [you could add Sexton and Drico to that list as well, although they're no longer with Leinster] – that takes in a lot of players who've 'done it all' with Leinster but have unfinished business with Ireland.

I thought that there was a big effort from the Leinster guys in the Irish squad last year to prove that Schmidt's ideas and systems could work at test level, and to prove that everything they had been saying in interviews over the previous three years could be backed up on the field against international sides. It's very easy to forget how many people were quick to repeat the idea that JS would struggle at test level because he didn't have the same amount of time with the players as he did at club level.

O'Connor seems like a decent guy to me, but he clearly isn't as good a coach as Schmidt [no matter what lens you examine them through], and in terms of what he's offering to Leinster-contracted Irish internationals as a coach, it's not an attractive package. If Leinster guys were coming back from those high-intensity, tight precision training camps under Schmidt to a Leinster set-up where they were encouraged to throw the ball around, try for offloads and play in a 'typically' Toulouse/Leinster style, then there might be some split loyalties between Leinster and Ireland, certainly in terms of how much they're enjoying their rugby. As it is, when they come back from Irish camps, they're going into what looks like a very one-dimensional, uninventive and joyless style with their province. It's no contest.

[simonokeeffe]

the problem with injuries is the senior players/leaders are largely not involved in matchdays or away with Ireland: RK, Healy, SOB 3 main ones but also Strauss, Ruddock, McFadden

McGrath, Furlong, Bent, Douglas, McCarthy, Conan, Dippy probably Cronin all either too new (to first team) to push for anything, Toner, Ross, and Locky probably too quiet
Gopperth, Fanning, Kirchner, M McGrath, Te'o all owe their loyalty to MOC, Reid, Macken too peripheral, Boss playing poorly but still being picked a lot

So in pack only looking at Jennings (who has been injured for ages) aside from Heaslip to do anything, but as captain Heaslip's job is to keep things together
In backs Reddan, Darcy, maybe Luke

Hard to agitate for change with just 3 or 4 senior players and the internationals wont want any distractions come 6 nations time

best I can see there is senior players/internationals having a meeting after 6n/if and or when we have nothing left to play for

Yeah, I wouldn't be putting much hope in a "players' revolt" or anything like it.

Personally speaking, I think that there are a lot of guys in our squad who are much more interested in performing for Ireland than they are for Leinster this year – the opposite of the supposed 'Munster by the Grace of God' syndrome that Rob Kearney brought up in Enfield in December 2008. I think that there's a lot of loyalty to Joe Schmidt ahead of Matt O'Connor amongst the guys who have been capped for Ireland in the Leinster ranks – which is a lot of them – and in a world cup year, there's an obvious emphasis on the national team over the provincial teams.

When you consider all the guys who were massively successful at Leinster with Schmidt and must have felt like they had under-performed [or been sidelined, in Reddan's case] with Ireland under Kidney for a number of years – Healy, Ross, Heaslip, O'Brien, Reddan, D'Arcy, Ferg, Rob Kearney [you could add Sexton and Drico to that list as well, although they're no longer with Leinster] – that takes in a lot of players who've 'done it all' with Leinster but have unfinished business with Ireland.

I thought that there was a big effort from the Leinster guys in the Irish squad last year to prove that Schmidt's ideas and systems could work at test level, and to prove that everything they had been saying in interviews over the previous three years could be backed up on the field against international sides. It's very easy to forget how many people were quick to repeat the idea that JS would struggle at test level because he didn't have the same amount of time with the players as he did at club level.

O'Connor seems like a decent guy to me, but he clearly isn't as good a coach as Schmidt [no matter what lens you examine them through], and in terms of what he's offering to Leinster-contracted Irish internationals as a coach, it's not an attractive package. If Leinster guys were coming back from those high-intensity, tight precision training camps under Schmidt to a Leinster set-up where they were encouraged to throw the ball around, try for offloads and play in a 'typically' Toulouse/Leinster style, then there might be some split loyalties between Leinster and Ireland, certainly in terms of how much they're enjoying their rugby. As it is, when they come back from Irish camps, they're going into what looks like a very one-dimensional, uninventive and joyless style with their province. It's no contest.

plus side of turning into Welsh rugby is we might make a RWC semi and win more grand slams

a technical issue we have too which is compounded by an unwillingness to sue the bench in big games is that of our first choice front 5, 3 of them Ross, Toner, and Douglas are not great at clearing players out of the ruck when theyre first an in

[johng]

So what happens if this experimentation costs us either a hectic place and all the potential funding from gate receipts from playoffs etc?

...or assuming we do qualify for Europe, finishing down the league table will mean a lower seeding and a hellish group next year.

There's no seeding outside of the league winners.

Of course there are seedings. The lower you are in the league the lower the seeding

I read an article recently which actually did quite a good job of explaining how the new seeding system works and insisted that every team would be seeded - the outcome could/would/should be something like this:



The winners of each final become the 1st seeds and the extra two 1st seeds are decided by a draw among the three losing finalists.

The third finalist becomes a 2nd seed along with the three better positioned of the losing semi finalists. The final 2nd seed would be drawn from the other three losing semi finalists

The remaining two losing semi finalists become third seeds along with the teams which finished 5th in each of the leagues.

Finally the 4th seeds would be the three teams that finished 6th in their leagues, along with the 7th place finisher from the Pro12 and the winner of the playoff between English and French 7th placed teams

The article didn't actually explain how the losing semi finalists would be ranked so I positioned them using their finishing league position hence Munster are seeded higher than Ulster.


My biggest worry is that the article took the time to explain that a mechanism would be in place to ensure three English or three French teams couldn't end up in the same group but there was no mention anywhere of the same guarantee for the Irish teams!

[All Blacks nil]

Is it fair to lay the blame on MOC?

Probably
Not to many coach's have the luxury of 27 internationals ( all capped in the last 2 seasons) on their books.

Not his fault that his forwards coach has morphed from a solid grizzled, master of the dark arts, respected worldwide second row into a cappuchino wielding transition student on work experience.

Not his fault that the 25 Irish internationals in those 27 internationals obey and take heed of a different master.

Time for the team leadership to pull the team together and play for Leinster. Just as RK's outburst in Enfield helped Ireland's cause, the senior players in particular need to step up and bring the team with them

To many guys too comfortable

[neiliog93]

Is it fair to lay the blame on MOC?

Probably
Not to many coach's have the luxury of 27 internationals ( all capped in the last 2 seasons) on their books.

Not his fault that his forwards coach has morphed from a solid grizzled, master of the dark arts, respected worldwide second row into a cappuchino wielding transition student on work experience.

Not his fault that the 25 Irish internationals in those 27 internationals obey and take heed of a different master.

Time for the team leadership to pull the team together and play for Leinster. Just as RK's outburst in Enfield helped Ireland's cause, the senior players in particular need to step up and bring the team with them

To many guys too comfortable

We almost need a reverse outburst now..."Why do we play better for Ireland than for Leinster??"

[simplythebest]

Hard to see anything other than a Glasgow and Hairsprays win this weekend. A loss to Ulster will cement our 6th place position and as far as I'm concerned if Connacht beat Edinburgh and we lose to Cardiff next weekend (which could very easily happen with us away and Connacht at home), a line will have been crossed.

From where I'm sitting and to borrow a soccer parlance, the man has clearly lost the dressing room.

[molloyjh]

Hard to see anything other than a Glasgow and Hairsprays win this weekend. A loss to Ulster will cement our 6th place position and as far as I'm concerned if Connacht beat Edinburgh and we lose to Cardiff next weekend (which could very easily happen with us away and Connacht at home), a line will have been crossed.

From where I'm sitting and to borrow a soccer parlance, the man has clearly lost the dressing room.

A loss tomorrow would only have us in 6th if we fail to get the LBP. If we lose but get that we go ahead of Connacht again. For what you are saying above to happen we'd first need to lose to Ulster by 8 or more, who are in as bad a place as we are now and are away from home. Then we'd have to lose away to a Cardiff side who are absolute pants at the moment. I can't see both of those happening. In fact I'd be hugely disappointed if either happened. I'd expect us to win both of these games.

As bad as things are at the moment this is massively alarmist stuff.

[outcast eddie]

Hard to see anything other than a Glasgow and Hairsprays win this weekend. A loss to Ulster will cement our 6th place position and as far as I'm concerned if Connacht beat Edinburgh and we lose to Cardiff next weekend (which could very easily happen with us away and Connacht at home), a line will have been crossed.

From where I'm sitting and to borrow a soccer parlance, the man has clearly lost the dressing room.

A loss tomorrow would only have us in 6th if we fail to get the LBP. If we lose but get that we go ahead of Connacht again. For what you are saying above to happen we'd first need to lose to Ulster by 8 or more, who are in as bad a place as we are now and are away from home. Then we'd have to lose away to a Cardiff side who are absolute pants at the moment. I can't see both of those happening. In fact I'd be hugely disappointed if either happened. I'd expect us to win both of these games.

As bad as things are at the moment this is massively alarmist stuff.

I'm not too confident against Cardiff TBH. They put together a reasonable performance to beat the Dragons yesterday and will be buoyed by that.
There's every chance that Schminutes/injuries/bad decisions by the coaching staff will conspire to send a poor team across too.
Remember the Treviso shambles!

[molloyjh]

Hard to see anything other than a Glasgow and Hairsprays win this weekend. A loss to Ulster will cement our 6th place position and as far as I'm concerned if Connacht beat Edinburgh and we lose to Cardiff next weekend (which could very easily happen with us away and Connacht at home), a line will have been crossed.

From where I'm sitting and to borrow a soccer parlance, the man has clearly lost the dressing room.

A loss tomorrow would only have us in 6th if we fail to get the LBP. If we lose but get that we go ahead of Connacht again. For what you are saying above to happen we'd first need to lose to Ulster by 8 or more, who are in as bad a place as we are now and are away from home. Then we'd have to lose away to a Cardiff side who are absolute pants at the moment. I can't see both of those happening. In fact I'd be hugely disappointed if either happened. I'd expect us to win both of these games.

As bad as things are at the moment this is massively alarmist stuff.

I'm not too confident against Cardiff TBH. They put together a reasonable performance to beat the Dragons yesterday and will be buoyed by that.
There's every chance that Schminutes/injuries/bad decisions by the coaching staff will conspire to send a poor team across too.
Remember the Treviso shambles!

Despite rumours to the contrary I'm an optimistic sort. We can't be that bad again this season.

[simonokeeffe]

if you look at fixtures dont think we'll miss out on Europe

Dragons, Zebre and Treviso at home for us to dip our bread
Worry for playoffs is we have Dragons, Scarlets and Edinburgh away which are easily winnable but our away form is so poor

[neiliog93]

Cardiff also lost at home to Dragons the week before beating them away. We really should beat them.

[All Blacks nil]

Amazing how 40 minutes releases the pressure on a coach. That forty minutes will in the future be viewed in the same light as Manchester United's FA Cup victory v Crystal Palace that saved Fergie's job.

The rest was history

Arise Sir MOC!!!!

[Hippo]

^^^^^^
I wouldn't normally bother, but it was Oldham Athletic.

[OTT]

^^^^^^
I wouldn't normally bother, but it was Oldham Athletic.

That was the semi, the Final was Crystal Palace beaten 1-0 in a replay after a 3-3 draw in the first match. Step forward Les Sealey (RIP) and Lee Martin.

[Hippo]

I know. It's generally accepted that defeat to Oldham would have done for Ferguson though.

Oops - 1990! Never mind, Palace irrelevant anyhow.

[Donny B.]

^^^^^^
I wouldn't normally bother, but it was Oldham Athletic.

Actually I think the game you're all thinking of was in the third round v Notts Forest, who were a strong team at the time.
United had been on a rotten run and the word was out that Fergie was gone if they lost (though Martin Edwards subsequently denied it, as he would).
Mark Robbins got the winner though and the rest (unfortunately) is history.

[molloyjh]

Amazing how 40 minutes releases the pressure on a coach. That forty minutes will in the future be viewed in the same light as Manchester United's FA Cup victory v Crystal Palace that saved Fergie's job.

The rest was history

Arise Sir MOC!!!!

A lot hangs on how we do this week. We were still pretty poor in the first half on Saturday and another poor 80 minutes will land us right back where we were before the Ulster game. We've all seen enough false dawns with Ireland, the Saints game and the Pro12 final last year to know that one 80 minute performance alone doesn't mean much if it isn't followed up. A 40 minute performance would mean even less. We have something to build on now though, just like we did at the end of May. Let's hope we can, and then maybe we can talk about the pressure easing....