Kearney: Love/Hate

[hugonaut]

I dunno, I was always thought that one way of defending in Robs position was to show the guy the outside and shepherd him into touch, and thats what happened

And that's clearly what didn't happen. He didn't show him the outside and he didn't shepard him anywhere.

He flapped at Cuthert (as most people have been saying). went too high (as he always does) and allowed Cuthbert ti skin him on the outside. It was another awful attempted tackle. But we're not allowed to say that because we have small memories cos Rob was European Player of the Year in 2012.

Yeah, it was a sh*t attempt alright.

Calm down about 'not being allowed' to criticise Kearney though. Criticise away, just don't expect unfounded or badly reasoned criticisms not to get questioned. You said in the past that he hadn't played well since 2009, that Nacewa was clearly a better fullback [not just defender] and that RK was only selected because he was Irish – all questionable.

You were giving out about how his 2011-12 ERC award didn't mean anything, conveniently not addressing the fact that he won IRUPA Player of the Year and Leinster's Players Player of the Year that season, both of them voted on by his peers.

To be honest, it comes across like you have a bee in your bonnet about Kearney and are unwilling to give him praise for any of the good stuff he does, but throw him under the bus when he f*cks up. Sound!

[Logorrhea]

To be honest, it comes across like you have a bee in your bonnet about Kearney and are unwilling to give him praise for any of the good stuff he does, but throw him under the bus when he f*cks up. Sound!

I know this wasn't aimed at me but I'm in complete agreement with Suisse on this.

Form 4 years ago, and awards 2 years ago have no real relevance, though I'm pretty sure I would have been calling for him, and his performances to be rewarded with such accolades. However fresh in my mind right now is the series of missed or bottled tackles he is making. In fact, as I've said the only tackle I remember Kearney making in the past two years was when the prop ran into him on the line and he literally couldn't get out of the way in time. Aside from that its one pathetic "attempt" after another (unless of course he can climb onto the players back). For a quality fullback, or more importantly a Leinster fullback that simply isn't an option any more. He needs to sort this out.

Zane Kirchner can kick, enter the line, pass from the hand and while he aint the greatest defender (take a look at that Rene Ranger clip), he'll at least throw his head in there and try to take the player down. However to quite a few on here hes a million miles behind Rob in the pecking order based on previous form, awards, and the fact that Rob is Irish. Its nonsense.

Currently I'd have Dave and Zane (if available) both ahead of Rob at FB at the moment based on the fact that they can catch, run, pass, and are not afraid to tackle.

[artaneboy]

I dunno, I was always thought that one way of defending in Robs position was to show the guy the outside and shepherd him into touch, and thats what happened

And that's clearly what didn't happen. He didn't show him the outside and he didn't shepard him anywhere.

He flapped at Cuthert (as most people have been saying). went too high (as he always does) and allowed Cuthbert ti skin him on the outside. It was another awful attempted tackle. But we're not allowed to say that because we have small memories cos Rob was European Player of the Year in 2012.

Yeah, it was a sh*t attempt alright.

Calm down about 'not being allowed' to criticise Kearney though. Criticise away, just don't expect unfounded or badly reasoned criticisms not to get questioned. You said in the past that he hadn't played well since 2009, that Nacewa was clearly a better fullback [not just defender] and that RK was only selected because he was Irish – all questionable.
You were giving out about how his 2011-12 ERC award didn't mean anything, conveniently not addressing the fact that he won IRUPA Player of the Year and Leinster's Players Player of the Year that season, both of them voted on by his peers.

To be honest, it comes across like you have a bee in your bonnet about Kearney and are unwilling to give him praise for any of the good stuff he does, but throw him under the bus when he f*cks up. Sound!

Well exactly- who said you couldn't criticise Rob. Just because I don't agree with you on the specific issue- or his being useless since 2009, you throw a hissy fit? Jeez!!

I expect better than you than this stroppy-dogmatic attitude. Rob has always (like Jamie) attracted his share of critics based as much on his supposed lifestyle and attitude. A lot of the criticism is cr@p but he has missed a few tackles and needs to work on that. But he has also made a good few important ones for us too. Remember he tackled and held that prop up over the line in the Glasgow Rabo-semi earlier this year- for one? And don't say that yer man just ran into him. His general form has been good this year and if he needs to improve; he is more than capable of doing that. He is still a class act.

[Alternative Ulster]

Yerman (Ryan Grant) just ran into him.

Either that or he made an unbelievable tackle on a much bigger man, preventing him from grounding the ball for a try that would possibly have put us out of the rabo final. (or was it in the game a few weeks previous?)

[artaneboy]

To be honest, it comes across like you have a bee in your bonnet about Kearney and are unwilling to give him praise for any of the good stuff he does, but throw him under the bus when he f*cks up. Sound!

I know this wasn't aimed at me but I'm in complete agreement with Suisse on this.

Form 4 years ago, and awards 2 years ago have no real relevance, though I'm pretty sure I would have been calling for him, and his performances to be rewarded with such accolades. However fresh in my mind right now is the series of missed or bottled tackles he is making. In fact, as I've said the only tackle I remember Kearney making in the past two years was when the prop ran into him on the line and he literally couldn't get out of the way in time. Aside from that its one pathetic "attempt" after another (unless of course he can climb onto the players back). For a quality fullback, or more importantly a Leinster fullback that simply isn't an option any more. He needs to sort this out.

Zane Kirchner can kick, enter the line, pass from the hand and while he aint the greatest defender (take a look at that Rene Ranger clip), he'll at least throw his head in there and try to take the player down. However to quite a few on here hes a million miles behind Rob in the pecking order based on previous form, awards, and the fact that Rob is Irish. Its nonsense.

Currently I'd have Dave and Zane (if available) both ahead of Rob at FB at the moment based on the fact that they can catch, run, pass, and are not afraid to tackle.

Ah c'mon! This anti-Rob stuff is reaching hysterical levels now. He missed or messed up that tackle on Friday and there's possibly another couple of instances over the last year. But are you saying that it's not correctable? That a player with a great pedigree for us should just be shunted aside for another who hasn't even played a game for us- and who some here (not me) think is useless himself. A bit of balance is needed here before we all turn into Munster-Fans.com

[artaneboy]

Yerman (Ryan Grant) just ran into him.

Either that or he made an unbelievable tackle on a much bigger man, preventing him from grounding the ball for a try that would possibly have put us out of the rabo final. (or was it in the game a few weeks previous?)

The latter, I'd say!

[johng]

Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I can't remember which Glasgow game it was in either. But if it was the league game it would have put us in 3rd place and we would have had to travel to Glasgow in the semi.

[Logorrhea]

But he has also made a good few important ones for us too. Remember he tackled and held that prop up over the line in the Glasgow Rabo-semi earlier this year- for one? And don't say that yer man just ran into him.

Nonsense. Look at the try (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5BJyFt4WIc), if Grant ran anywhere but into straight into Kearney it would have been a try. Kearney didn't have to adjust at all, he went from inspecting the ruck to sweeping the line and just soaked up the tackle. He made it of course and fair play to him for doing so, but he literally couldn't avoid it and he didn't have to go low to make it.

The other point is that people keep churning this tackle out as an example of his tackling prowess. Seriously can anyone provide an example? I wouldn't mind knowing if he always had this problem, or is it recent?

He is still a class act.

You see that kinda statement is part of the problem. People keep saying that but no one has seen it in quite a while. Isa Nacewa was a class act. BOD is a class act. Madigan is looking pretty classy. Rob Kearney on current form, is a fairly average player who wont tackle, yet his place in the starting 15 is assured for some reason?

Ah c'mon! This anti-Rob stuff is reaching hysterical levels now. He missed or messed up that tackle on Friday and there's possibly another couple of instances over the last year. But are you saying that it's not correctable? That a player with a great pedigree for us should just be shunted aside for another who hasn't even played a game for us- and who some here (not me) think is useless himself. A bit of balance is needed here before we all turn into Munster-Fans.com

Never said its not correctable. As I said he should fix it, then I'll be more than happy to see him play for us. Until then though ............. there is nothing hysterical about pointing out an obvious flaw in his game. Nothing hysterical about suggesting the current Sprinbok #15 (the #2 team in the world) could be in with a shout starting over him. Nothing hysterical about suggesting that Robs brother is currently the better option at 15 of the two. Appealing to Pedigree however? You may as well point to the colour of his boots for all the use that is.

I think I'm being pretty objective about it. If he puts in one decent tackle I'll immediately start changing my mind, but at the moment hes costing us points and the better player should play.

[Morf]

Rob K's kicking out of hand has been almost totally awful for quite a while.

The opening kick to touch on Friday has been the exception.

He sliced a couple against Glasgow. Seemed to mis-kick nearly every time against Cardiff. I remember a few mis-kicks against Stade Francais in the Amlin Final too.

They aren't the booming 65+ metre kicks we are used to. It's wounded ducks what we're mostly seeing for quite a while.

[Leoslovechild]

Rob K's kicking out of hand has been almost totally awful for quite a while.

The opening kick to touch on Friday has been the exception.

He sliced a couple against Glasgow. Seemed to mis-kick nearly every time against Cardiff. I remember a few mis-kicks against Stade Francais in the Amlin Final too.

They aren't the booming 65+ metre kicks we are used to. It's wounded ducks what we're mostly seeing for quite a while.

Still the very first name I'd like to see taking a garryowen out of the air no matter how many are around

[the spoofer]

Rob K's kicking out of hand has been almost totally awful for quite a while.

The opening kick to touch on Friday has been the exception.

He sliced a couple against Glasgow. Seemed to mis-kick nearly every time against Cardiff. I remember a few mis-kicks against Stade Francais in the Amlin Final too.

They aren't the booming 65+ metre kicks we are used to. It's wounded ducks what we're mostly seeing for quite a while.

Still the very first name I'd like to see taking a garryowen out of the air no matter how many are around

Girve.

[Morf]

Rob K's kicking out of hand has been almost totally awful for quite a while.

The opening kick to touch on Friday has been the exception.

He sliced a couple against Glasgow. Seemed to mis-kick nearly every time against Cardiff. I remember a few mis-kicks against Stade Francais in the Amlin Final too.

They aren't the booming 65+ metre kicks we are used to. It's wounded ducks what we're mostly seeing for quite a while.

Still the very first name I'd like to see taking a garryowen out of the air no matter how many are around

Surely there's more to FB play than that though.

[simonokeeffe]

with all the mistakes he made Heaslip must be glad everyone focusing on Rob

[Morf]

with all the mistakes he made Heaslip must be glad everyone focusing on Rob

Every cloud!

[outcast eddie]

Rob K's kicking out of hand has been almost totally awful for quite a while.

The opening kick to touch on Friday has been the exception.

He sliced a couple against Glasgow. Seemed to mis-kick nearly every time against Cardiff. I remember a few mis-kicks against Stade Francais in the Amlin Final too.

They aren't the booming 65+ metre kicks we are used to. It's wounded ducks what we're mostly seeing for quite a while.

Still the very first name I'd like to see taking a garryowen out of the air no matter how many are around

Girve.

Isa!! (with the day that's in it an' all)

[suisse]

I dunno, I was always thought that one way of defending in Robs position was to show the guy the outside and shepherd him into touch, and thats what happened

And that's clearly what didn't happen. He didn't show him the outside and he didn't shepard him anywhere.

He flapped at Cuthert (as most people have been saying). went too high (as he always does) and allowed Cuthbert ti skin him on the outside. It was another awful attempted tackle. But we're not allowed to say that because we have small memories cos Rob was European Player of the Year in 2012.

Yeah, it was a sh*t attempt alright.

Calm down about 'not being allowed' to criticise Kearney though. Criticise away, just don't expect unfounded or badly reasoned criticisms not to get questioned. You said in the past that he hadn't played well since 2009, that Nacewa was clearly a better fullback [not just defender] and that RK was only selected because he was Irish – all questionable. We've had this discussion before. I am not looking for anything to go unquestioned. You can throw a few playing stats my way, but I will always believe that Nacewa was the best full back in Ireland but Rob was accommodated in a position that post Murphy and Dempsey, we were not producing. You disagree? That's great, welcome to the forum.

You were giving out about how his 2011-12 ERC award didn't mean anything, conveniently not addressing the fact that he won IRUPA Player of the Year and Leinster's Players Player of the Year that season, both of them voted on by his peers. I didn't conveniently over-look that. I answered that before. I disagreed with the selection. What more do you want? He won the IRUPA award in 2012, right? I thought his 6 Nations performances were awful that season, and if his peers deem him to be the best Irish player, then that's up to them. Wasn't ROG also nominated? I also said it was rather convenient for Leinster fans to cherry-pick which awards or nominations are merited, and which are branded useless by some people here.

To be honest, it comes across like you have a bee in your bonnet about Kearney and are unwilling to give him praise for any of the good stuff he does, but throw him under the bus when he f*cks up. Sound! Yes, sound bud. The debate was on the non tackle of Alex Cuthbert. It is not like people were discussing the positives aspects of his play, and I waded in with this to throw him under the bus. The mis-tackle was topical, therefore I commented. What's the problem? BTW, if you check the preview threads for the 2012 Heineken Cup Final, you'll find I said the person I was most happy for was Rob Kearney, having missed out on the 2009 and 2011 Finals. I have said on numerous occasions that I was a huge fan of his, but I don't think he is anywhere near the player he was circa 2009. Feel better now?

[suisse]

Well exactly- who said you couldn't criticise Rob. Just because I don't agree with you on the specific issue- or his being useless since 2009, you throw a hissy fit? Jeez!!

I expect better than you than this stroppy-dogmatic attitude. Rob has always (like Jamie) attracted his share of critics based as much on his supposed lifestyle and attitude. A lot of the criticism is cr@p but he has missed a few tackles and needs to work on that. But he has also made a good few important ones for us too. Remember he tackled and held that prop up over the line in the Glasgow Rabo-semi earlier this year- for one? And don't say that yer man just ran into him. His general form has been good this year and if he needs to improve; he is more than capable of doing that. He is still a class act.

Not sure on your quoting here, but are you talking to me? If so, we have very different views on what constitutes a hissy-fit. Did you really need the emoticon too? It strikes me a bit odd that someone will accuse others of hissy-fitting then use that emoticon to back up a point.

I don't have any problem with Rob's "supposed lifestyle or attitude." Unless they are paying homage to James O'Connor by re-enacting his off-the-field ploys, I couldn't care less what he and Heaslip get up to. My opinion is Kearney should be on borrowed time, and I wouldn't select him for Ireland at number 15 this Autumn.

Also, I don't recall that tackle. But I will search for it this evening. If I find it - and it was good - then I will acknowledge it. As I said in response to Hugonaut, the mis-tackle was the topical conversation at the time. Hence, the comment. It is not like we had 10 pages of worship and I decided to pop in with a massive criticism.

[jezzer]

Leinster has pioneered the non-tackling fullback and we're sticking with the programme come hell or high water.

[simonokeeffe]

If Rob has a poor season its not like we're short on options Kirchner, Gopperth, Madigan

[hugonaut]

I didn't conveniently over-look that. I answered that before. I disagreed with the selection. What more do you want? He won the IRUPA award in 2012, right? I thought his 6 Nations performances were awful that season, and if his peers deem him to be the best Irish player, then that's up to them. Wasn't ROG also nominated? I also said it was rather convenient for Leinster fans to cherry-pick which awards or nominations are merited, and which are branded useless by some people here.

You thought his 2012 Six Nations performances were "awful" and you "don't think he is anywhere near the player he was circa 2009"? I think you've got either a pretty faulty or very selective memory of the 2012 tournament.

He kicked less, passed more, ran more often, ran for considerably more metres [c. 20m/game], made more metres/carry, made more clean breaks [6 in 5 games in 2012 as opposed to 1 in 5 games in 2009] and beat more defenders [15 in 5 games in 2012, 5 in 5 games in 2009] in 2012 than he did in 2009. He missed more tackles in 2012 [2 in 5 games] than he did in 2009 [1 in 5 games] and didn't offload the ball as often [1 in 5 games in 2012, 3 in 5 games in 2009], but the offensive gains outweigh those [in my opinion].

He averaged 90m/game with the ball in hand [over 8m/carry], more than a clean break per game, beat an average of 3 defenders every game – those are massive numbers for the Six Nations, especially considering that the matches are played in February and March under conditions which aren't conducive to running rugby. They're as good as Sonny-Bill Williams' numbers in his 2011-12 Super Rugby season [bar his offloads, admittedly]. He led the team for clean breaks, defenders beaten, metres run and average metres/carry over the course of the championship.

He ran for more metres than the other six members of the Irish backline combined against France and Scotland – you can add in the three backs who came off the bench against Scotland [O'Leary, O'Gara and McFadden] and the combined total of the nine Irish backs who took the pitch that day only equal Kearney's 127m. He beat more defenders than the other six members of the Irish backline combined against Italy and Scotland. So no, he wasn't 'awful' in the 2012 Six Nations.

vs Wales 2012 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2012/ ... 33769.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/1 Pts: 0 K/P/R: 4/8/8 MR: 49 CB: 0 DB: 0 OL: 1 TO: 0 Tack: 2/1 LO: 2/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0
@ Wales 2009 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/sixnations/rugby/match/25806.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts: 0 K/P/R: 7/0/6 MR: 64 CB: 0 DB: 0 OL: 2 TO: 2 Tack: 2/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0

vs Italy 2012 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2012/ ... 33773.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts: 0 K/P/R: 3/3/14 MR: 104 CB: 4 DB: 9 OL: 0 TO: 3 Tack: 2/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0
@ Italy 2009 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/sixnations/rugby/match/25783.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts:2 K/P/R: 3/1/14 MR: 98 CB: 1 DB:1 OL: 1 TO: 3 Tack: 1/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0


@ France 2012 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2012/ ... 33771.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts: 0 K/P/R: 5/0/12 MR: 131 CB: 1 DB: 2 OL: 0 TO: 2 Tack: 3/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0
vs France 2009 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/sixnations/rugby/match/25777.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts:0 K/P/R: 8/2/11 MR: 49 CB: 0 DB: 3 OL: 2 TO: 1 Tack: 3/1 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0


vs Scotland 2012 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2012/ ... 33777.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts: 0 K/P/R: 2/2/12 MR: 127 CB: 1 DB: 4 OL: 0 TO: 2 Tack: 1/1 LO: 0/0 Pen:0 Y/R: 0/0
@ Scotland 2009 [http://www.espn.co.uk/sixnations/rugby/match/25794.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts:0 K/P/R: 9/2/15 MR: 122 CB: 0 DB:1 OL: 0 TO: 2 Tack: 3/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0


@ England 2012 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2012/ ... 33781.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts: 0 K/P/R: 6/0/8 MR: 40 CB: 0 DB: 0 OL: 0 TO: 4 Tack: 0/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 0 Y/R: 0/0
vs England 2009 [source: http://www.espn.co.uk/sixnations/rugby/match/25789.html ]
Kearney T/A: 0/0 Pts:0 K/P/R: 9/1/5 MR: 16 CB: 0 DB: 0 OL: 0 TO: 0 Tack: 4/0 LO: 0/0 Pen: 1 Y/R: 0/0


EDIT: Apologies for formatting issues above

Average 2012 Six Nations game:
K/P/R: 4/2.5/11
Metres Run: 90
Clean Breaks: 1.2
Defenders Beaten: 3
Offloads: 0.2 [i.e. 1 in 5 games]
Turnovers: 2.2
Tackles Made/Missed: 1.6/0.4

Average 2009 Six Nations game:
K/P/R: 7/1/10
Metres Run: 70
Clean Breaks: 0.2
Defenders Beaten: 0.6
Offloads:1.6
Turnovers: 1.6
Tackles Made/Missed: 2.6/0/2

He did this while playing in a less successful team [winning only two games in 2012 compared to five in 2009] and under laws which in theory didn't suit him as well as the 2009 version.

I'm not going to defend his sh*tty defending, because it irritates me. We're in agreement on that. I'm not even a particularly big Kearney fan [compared to some people on the board, for example], although I do rate him, and am surprised that other people have such a negative opinion of him. I take a bit of an issue with the whole re-writing of history lark though, and to be honest Suisse, you've offered very little in the way of evidence to support some strongly worded opinions.

I was lucky enough to get to the majority of Leinster and Ireland's home games and a few away games in the 2011-12 season, and your opinion doesn't tally with what I saw live [or recorded], what the numbers say about his performances and how his fellow pros saw it.