Why Conway should/shouldn't wear blue again

[Vamos los azules]

Think fitz signed a contract this week to be announced this friday

would be some good news amongst the angst of this past 2 weeks....(of course you dont say for whom he has signed!!)

Maybe there's a buy one get one free offer on Blackrock lads this week and Fitz is off to Munster as well?

[meinster]

Can't believe Leinster would give him a two year deal and then be happy to let him go after half a season. Does it make sense to you?

Makes a lot more sense than the legal and financial complications of breaking the contract; and the other club would be ill-advised to touch that knowing that legal action wouldn't be out of the question. Mutual consent is the more logical option here, even if the hand of Leinster was forced somewhat to arrive at that consent. I.e. Conway could have said "look it, this place is a load of balls, I never get decent game time, I'm learning nothing, etc." .. so if he was constantly being moany about how cr@p his time was there, then Leinster would be more likely to agree to release.

If Lesinter wanted Conway, this would be a lot more complicated and drawn out. Unless there was a breakout clause in Conway's contract (which would be unusual, but not unheard of).

[TrapperChamonix]

I seem to remember another winger from Leinster going to Munster. How did that work out?

[Doc]

If he goes to Munster, rips it up and becomes a fantastic player, then good for him. If he scores a winning try against us in a HEC final, then good for him again. I'll be p**sed off as a Leinster fan, but I'll bear him no ill will. Same as I'm delighted for the likes of Ross and Reddan, who didn't make it at their home province, that they came to us and proved themselves.

Big difference is that Ross and Reddan were both let go by the home province, rebuilt their careers in England and were then head-hunted by Leinster, when their home province still didn't want them.

As for Conway just "changing departments in the IRFU", if that all the provinces mean to you, I'm surprised you watch Leinster at all.

There are two differences from the Ross/Reddan situation and the Conway
a) contract
b) going to england for a bit

To take (b) first, I'd far rather, other things being equal, that the player went to another province and stayed in Ireland than went to England. They're going to another team to further their career in either case. I'd rather they made Irish rugby stronger in doing so.
To return to the first point - as has been pointed out, you can be damn sure that Leinster aren't just waving goodbye to a player they really want. I've been somewhat underwhelmed by Conway for Leinster, given his promise at schools level, but he is still very young and might just be a slow burner. Particularly in light of his relatively small stature. I would say it is more likely that Leinster have simply decided that he isn't a top priority of theirs right now, than they're reluctantly just giving up on a player who wants out. More likely still that this is also the signs of the increased 'second string' movement of players between provinces that we heard about around the time of the MMcC move. I'd be delighted if that were the case.

I'm not going to get into a 'real fan' debate with you - but my 'changing departments' point was that it is relatively straightforward contractually - far easier than it would be if he was going to Bath, for example. Leinster is very much my team (though I'll support any Irish team against any other side).

[Donny B.]

Can't believe Leinster would give him a two year deal and then be happy to let him go after half a season. Does it make sense to you?

Makes a lot more sense than the legal and financial complications of breaking the contract; and the other club would be ill-advised to touch that knowing that legal action wouldn't be out of the question. Mutual consent is the more logical option here, even if the hand of Leinster was forced somewhat to arrive at that consent. I.e. Conway could have said "look it, this place is a load of balls, I never get decent game time, I'm learning nothing, etc." .. so if he was constantly being moany about how cr@p his time was there, then Leinster would be more likely to agree to release.

If Lesinter wanted Conway, this would be a lot more complicated and drawn out. Unless there was a breakout clause in Conway's contract (which would be unusual, but not unheard of).

Would there be though? As has been pointed out before, the IRFU is his ultimate employer either way so if they were happy to make his contact null and void, what actual power would Leinster have to contest it? If they tried to take legal action, they'd essentially be suing themselves. It's different to a situation say where he was trying to walk away early to sign for an English club. Ultimately I want to know if the protocols for poaching players from other provinces can be bent or just ignored if the political powers in the IRFU want it so.

If Leinster were happy to be shot of him then fair enough, but again this doesn't make sense. Despite injuries limiting his involvement over the last two seasons, he was given a new two year deal last season. And he's been involved a lot this season, including making his first Heineken Cup start, not too bad for a kid of 21 that's still quite injury-prone. Does that fit the profile of someone Leinster wanted rid of?

[gfo]

It's a strange situation that implies three things:

(a) Leinster are either happy to let him leave or unwilling to fight for him.
(b) Conway wants to leave Leinster.
(c) Munster were interested enough to actually go after him.

I would guess that something happened behind closed doors that makes his unwilling to stay in Leinster, but I've heard no stories about him being unhappy or any issues involving him.
He'll be a lot further down the pecking order in Munster than he is now in Leinster, even if Howlett retires, Zebo is a nailed on starter, so he'd be competing for one of two spots against Earls (possibly) Johne Murphy, O'Dea, Jones, Hurley and big Cork Con star (and you know what that means) Sean Scanlon, assuming Munster don't go for any marquee names at wing or fullback.

[meinster]

Would there be though?

The legal action was more in general, rather than inter-pro. Still, though, the legals would have to be sorted (even for interpro). If break-out clauses that weren't performance-based were in the contract, then it's worthless, so it's unlikely to be anything other than mutual consent. Now how consent was reached is open to speculation and conspiracy theories a plenty. If Leinster's hand was forced in this, then that would be a huge problem for Irish rugby. Too big a risk to take, I'd imagine, because of the potential PR backlash, because of the potential flood gates opening for a lot higher profile transfers; and the blurring of interpro transfer rules, even if unwritten.

If Leinster were happy to be shot of him then fair enough, but again this doesn't make sense.

I don't know if they were happy, or just agreeable. We don't know enough of the background to rule something in or out, of making sense! To flip the argument, you could have had (hypothetically speaking, of course), a moany youngster who has not set the world alight since U20s on the field, and in training, that coerced a 2yr contract on the back of the threat to leave for England, now moaning again about the lack of game time; even though he's done nowhere near enough to warrant more consistent game time. Now just say the attitude wasn't great, would you just say "yeah, feck it, off you go", or stick to your guns and say no, we'll keep him and force him to see out the contract? Tricky one! Especially considering his potential. However, that potential hasn't been realised (for whatever reason), so as of now, he belongs in a pool of young Leinster wingers any of which will do a job for you during 6N/AI cover & injuries. OK Carr is gone, but there are others there. Save money and lose the (hypothetical) bad vibe, or stick to your principles.

All hypothetical, but just to make the point that it's not unreasonable to think that Leinster would be agreeable (if not relieved) to release him.

Does it boil down to living off potential versus delivering it? If you think the guy still has loads of potential (and stay reasonably injury-free), then you might be peeved at his release. If you think he's just one of a pool of wingers (DKearney rising to the top of the pool at the moment) that'll fill in, then if there's any small reason to go along with the release (saving money, promoting some wonder kid, losing bad attitude, etc.) then it's not such a big deal anymore?

As from a Munster point of view, I've no idea how the move makes sense (other than living off the hope of potential being realised and injuries not being an issue). Munster don't have a good record in that department. If Dougie is going trampling on cars full time at the end of the season, then Munster need a more reliable winger than Conway. If he's going as 2nd choice / backup winger, then fine (but then why move from Leinster).

[ronk]

Either Joe/Leinster doesn't want Conway and is happy to have him off our books so we can focus on developing/acquiring players we actually want --- which is unlikely.

Or Conway was unhappy enough that he was likely to quit the game --- also unlikely

Or Munster persuaded the IRFU to pressurise us into acceding. They're short of cash and another year for Howlett might be a big ask, especially if they're trying to scrape everything together to make a better offer for Botha. They might not be finding it easy to pick up a big name and they probably need someone who'll generate a bit of excitement (as Conway will). This last theory seems the best fit given the pattern of interprovincial signings that Munster have made in recent years.

It is troubling if the IRFU are taking stronger measures to interfere in this manner. The system is built around having a premium over going overseas and that has been effective, but it falls down quickly if there's continuous predatory player recruitment between the top teams for players who might only be a contract away from a central contract.

[Doc]

Why look for the negatives in it?

Conway obviously wants to go - otherwise he'd just see out his contract.
Munster obviously want him.
IRFU and Leinsters position is unknown - we're just speculating.

Occams razor applies surely - which is more credible?
1) Leinster wanted to keep him, but Munster/IRFU managed to somehow force Leinster to release him
2) Leinster didn't particularly want to keep him and the IRFU facilitated the transfer to Munster

I'd say it is more likely (2), with possibly an element of Leinster liking the idea of having him in reserve, but more enthused about the idea of being able to to access some young talented ambitious players who are in a longer queue at their home provinces.
Wind the clock back 3 years or so. Munster had O'Connell, O'Callaghan and O'Driscoll - all three involved around Irish squads, and all three at Munster. Meanwhile Donncha Ryan kicked around, barely getting a look in. Not a million miles away from where Conway is now. We'd be pretty happy at Leinster if he'd come to us then - he'd be a year or two further along the line from where he is now, and we'd be a lot better off.

[Donny B.]

Why look for the negatives in it?

Conway obviously wants to go - otherwise he'd just see out his contract.
Munster obviously want him.
IRFU and Leinsters position is unknown - we're just speculating.

Occams razor applies surely - which is more credible?
1) Leinster wanted to keep him, but Munster/IRFU managed to somehow force Leinster to release him
2) Leinster didn't particularly want to keep him and the IRFU facilitated the transfer to Munster

I'd say it is more likely (2), with possibly an element of Leinster liking the idea of having him in reserve, but more enthused about the idea of being able to to access some young talented ambitious players who are in a longer queue at their home provinces.
Wind the clock back 3 years or so. Munster had O'Connell, O'Callaghan and O'Driscoll - all three involved around Irish squads, and all three at Munster. Meanwhile Donncha Ryan kicked around, barely getting a look in. Not a million miles away from where Conway is now. We'd be pretty happy at Leinster if he'd come to us then - he'd be a year or two further along the line from where he is now, and we'd be a lot better off.

I dunno, maybe Ryan just really wanted to make it at Munster and he was willing to bide his time and pay his dues. Ultimately it's paid off for him as he's their number one lock now. I suppose it's the difference between wanting to make it at your home province or just being content to get a game anyway.

[artaneboy]

Why look for the negatives in it?

Conway obviously wants to go - otherwise he'd just see out his contract.
Munster obviously want him.
IRFU and Leinsters position is unknown - we're just speculating.

Occams razor applies surely - which is more credible?
1) Leinster wanted to keep him, but Munster/IRFU managed to somehow force Leinster to release him
2) Leinster didn't particularly want to keep him and the IRFU facilitated the transfer to Munster

I'd say it is more likely (2), with possibly an element of Leinster liking the idea of having him in reserve, but more enthused about the idea of being able to to access some young talented ambitious players who are in a longer queue at their home provinces.
Wind the clock back 3 years or so. Munster had O'Connell, O'Callaghan and O'Driscoll - all three involved around Irish squads, and all three at Munster. Meanwhile Donncha Ryan kicked around, barely getting a look in. Not a million miles away from where Conway is now. We'd be pretty happy at Leinster if he'd come to us then - he'd be a year or two further along the line from where he is now, and we'd be a lot better off.

I dunno, maybe Ryan just really wanted to make it at Munster and he was willing to bide his time and pay his dues. Ultimately it's paid off for him as he's their number one lock now. I suppose it's the difference between wanting to make it at your home province or just being content to get a game anyway.

If there is a deal/understanding- whatever, on a 'player swop' with Munster. I hope we go for Nagle. Funny enough he could be said to be in a similar position to Conway here. He's back in the pecking order- has had a couple of big days but hasn't made the break through. But I think he's both a more talented palyer and a better fit for our second row than Conway is for their back three.

[suisse]

1 in 5 people hitting this one; "Yes, when he comes back after a year or two down south under Howlett."

Who are these people? I'd love to know who thinks Conway will be back. I reckon he'll end up in England before coming back to Dublin.

[artaneboy]

1 in 5 people hitting this one; "Yes, when he comes back after a year or two down south under Howlett."

Who are these people? I'd love to know who thinks Conway will be back. I reckon he'll end up in England before coming back to Dublin.

He won't be back. Either he's a big sucess down there and they take him to their turnippy hearts- or he's a flop and he moves on to Sale; apparently the designated limbo for all players in 'transition'. Either way we won't want him back.

[johng]

1 in 5 people hitting this one; "Yes, when he comes back after a year or two down south under Howlett."

Who are these people? I'd love to know who thinks Conway will be back. I reckon he'll end up in England before coming back to Dublin.

41% going with the sensible option though. Only 28% going with the scream and stamp your foot option.

[suisse]

1 in 5 people hitting this one; "Yes, when he comes back after a year or two down south under Howlett."

Who are these people? I'd love to know who thinks Conway will be back. I reckon he'll end up in England before coming back to Dublin.

41% going with the sensible option though. Only 28% going with the scream and stamp your foot option.

The 41% just lost their season tickets!!!

[Doc]

I dunno, maybe Ryan just really wanted to make it at Munster and he was willing to bide his time and pay his dues. Ultimately it's paid off for him as he's their number one lock now. I suppose it's the difference between wanting to make it at your home province or just being content to get a game anyway.

Don't get me wrong. Loyalty to local provinces is a huge strength of Irish rugby, and one we need to keep. But Irish rugby as a whole is better off if there are some reasonable limits to that - i.e. players have the ambition to want to be playing first team rugby week in, week out. I'd love if Niall Morris was still floating about Leinster circles - he would have been very useful this year with the injuries we've had, but he made a brave move and it has worked out for him. That is better for him, and better for Irish rugby, and maybe even better for Leinster rugby. Leo and Shane were much better players (good as they were beforehand) when they returned from England. Reddan and Ross too.
I think it is inarguable that players develop faster when they're regularly playing high level rugby. If you're offered the chance of that, and your own medium term prospects at your home province are slim, then I think it is a good decision to make (for that player). If in the Irish context it means that on average we're losing some 'nice to have' players to other provinces and gaining some 'need to have' in return, then I think we're all better off for that.

[ronk]

Conway is a 21 year old winger who got an academy contract straight out of school and went into the squad after a year. We've had to work hard to keep him from being poached. He's a guy who was too small in many ways and has taken a few years to mature, in spite of obvious talent.

Given the injuries he's had, 30 caps is a very good total so far and he's getting to the stage where he's able to play more regularly and is getting gametime. There's every reason to think that he'll get as much gametime in Leinster next season, especially if Howlett stays on. Does this mean that Howlett retiring is a fait accompli?

A good example for him to look at would be Macken. He had a slower start and more questions over his abilities but they were seen as a pair. Macken got 10 minutes as a sub against Glasgow in his first season while Conway got two full matches and two sub appearances. Conway continued to be the one getting all the chances. It didn't help Macken that he broke his collar bone early in his first start. Macken has yet to play Heineken Cup rugby.

He's stuck with it though and he's looking good. Still a long way to go, but he's improving and he looks like he'll break through for us.

[ronk]

I think it is inarguable that players develop faster when they're regularly playing high level rugby. If you're offered the chance of that, and your own medium term prospects at your home province are slim, then I think it is a good decision to make (for that player). If in the Irish context it means that on average we're losing some 'nice to have' players to other provinces and gaining some 'need to have' in return, then I think we're all better off for that.

Pardon me for arguing the unarguable, but I don't think that it's always the case. If it was then there'd be much clearer progression for the young players that went to Connacht. In reality, even the ones that did well all came with bad habits and weaknesses in their games that needed to be ironed out. Keatley, Cronin, Hagan and Carr being the ones I'm really thinking about here. They left for gametime and they all did well. Hagan and Carr don't look to have made the grade at Leinster. Cronin and Keatley had their successes at Connacht, but they're both better players for having moved to an environment where they have to fight for their place and play a better overall game. Cronin is the big beneficiary, IMO. His handing is far better and his ability to time a run means that he's finally able to get the best out of his pace.

At the time that Jennings and Cullen moved, Leicester were a bigger club than we were. I agree that they improved, I don't think it was because they moved for gametime. Reddan moved to Wasps to sit on the bench, he went in behind Dawson. He didn't suddenly become amazing because he got a few games when Dawson was injured. He got improved coaching from someone (Edwards) who taught him how to play the position properly and knew how to get the best out of his talents. With Ross, the ability to spot talent aspect was even more stark. Kidney had zero use for Ross, but he was an instant hit with Harlequins. He improved more later, but it was as blatant an example of coaches preference for a particular skillset as you'll see in the game---Kidney flat out doesn't like Ross as a player.

[HenryFitz]

Zebo and Gilroy are in the national side. Conway is every bit as talented as them, if not more. He's number 5 or 6 in the wingers pecking order at Leinster, and probably not even 3rd choice at fullback. If he were the number 3 or 4 winger or the number 2 fullback, I think he'd be better off staying, as he'd be an injury or two away from a possible big breakthrough. But any player who's in the 3rd rank at his province should be thinking seriously about his future. Especially wingers, who will never be faster than they are at 21.

[Green]

Just my two cents ...... probably not worth even that.

This reminds me of the Poppy wearing news articles a short while ago. A BBC employee decided not to wear a poppy & got verbally trashed for his choice. Once upon a time wearing a poppy was a choice that was left up to an individual – one decided this was something that was for them or not. The wearing of the item told one something about the wearer.

A Leinster player whom is both able to and chooses to stay for his full career in the Province is something to be celebrated. It should not be the case that not being able to or choosing not to is lambasted. It devalues the commitment of the latter.

We should feel pride in those that can/choose to stay – not ill sentiment to those that cannot/choose not to.