LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Not sure what your point is about pedigree. He had his chance and wasn't good enough so we brought in/played other players to improve the team. Nobody should have an issue with that.
And I certainly don't. So why are people getting so het up about the possibility of a coach doing so? The point about pedigree is that POD was the scrum half (and if you remember the games, one who played rather well) on the best team in Europe at that age group and he didn't make it and had players signed over him before having to move and if it happened to a guy with that high a starting point...
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'm not sure why criticising MOC necessitates criticism of coaches spanning the last 10 years, every post would be an essay if we went down that route. Plus they brought players through and had the team performing well. MOC does not have the team performing well and doesn't seem to trust certain young players. Huge difference in circumstances. He also doesn't seem to be learning from his mistakes. For example, Kelleher is yet to make his debut despite having an excellent under 20 World Cup and having a great record in the B&I, yet we sign Isa...a player who retired two years ago.
I don't think the Nacewa signing is a particularly good move. Its a bit of a cliche to say you should never go back, but it has developed as such for a reason.
My point about MOC vs other coaches is why criticise a Leinster coach for doing what a Leinster coach does. Leinster coaches sign mature scrum-halves. Thats what they do. Now whether thats a right or a wrong thing is another matter, but perhaps the blame doesn't lie with the coaches, but with whatever process in the provinces schools, clubs and Academy leads to us producing second rate scrum-halves. Is McGrath just the latest in a production line of mediocre halfbacks? If he isn't then it won't matter who we sign as quality will tell - if he is, then what loss?
It's not about who we sign, it's about MOC not giving McGrath enough gametime to develop, players only get better by playing.
hopefully MOC is prevented from signing a NIQ SH until it is proven that McGrath isn't good enough.
I think people are getting "het up" because Reddan and Boss have been under performing for two seasons now and yet a former Ireland under 20 captain who has shown plenty of promise has not been trusted enough to develop. He makes mistakes and he's cast aside, they make mistakes and they're given chance after chance after chance. Other coaches didn't put such blind faith in older players regardless of their performances, hence why it's different regardless of whether you rate McGrath or not.
It's not like it's in a Leinster coach's DNA not to develop a local scrumhalf, circumstances dictate everything.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I think people are getting "het up" because Reddan and Boss have been under performing for two seasons now and yet a former Ireland under 20 captain who has shown plenty of promise has not been trusted enough to develop. He makes mistakes and he's cast aside, they make mistakes and they're given chance after chance after chance. Other coaches didn't put such blind faith in older players regardless of their performances, hence why it's different regardless of whether you rate McGrath or not.
Of course they do, for example, Reddan and Boss despite 'under performing for two seasons now' both played in the last two Six Nations, and will probably be picked as SH2 and SH3 for the Rugby World Cup by Joe Schmidt.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I think people are getting "het up" because Reddan and Boss have been under performing for two seasons now and yet a former Ireland under 20 captain who has shown plenty of promise has not been trusted enough to develop. He makes mistakes and he's cast aside, they make mistakes and they're given chance after chance after chance. Other coaches didn't put such blind faith in older players regardless of their performances, hence why it's different regardless of whether you rate McGrath or not.
Of course they do, for example, Reddan and Boss despite 'under performing for two seasons now' both played in the last two Six Nations, and will probably be picked as SH2 and SH3 for the Rugby World Cup by Joe Schmidt.
due to the lack of options.. not due to outstanding or even very good consistent form.
Marmion has regressed since christmas and failed to take advantage of his opportunity to overtake Boss.
Boss/Reddan's age wont hinder their ablity to play next September but post RWC they don't have long left at the top level.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I think people are getting "het up" because Reddan and Boss have been under performing for two seasons now and yet a former Ireland under 20 captain who has shown plenty of promise has not been trusted enough to develop. He makes mistakes and he's cast aside, they make mistakes and they're given chance after chance after chance. Other coaches didn't put such blind faith in older players regardless of their performances, hence why it's different regardless of whether you rate McGrath or not.
Of course they do, for example, Reddan and Boss despite 'under performing for two seasons now' both played in the last two Six Nations, and will probably be picked as SH2 and SH3 for the Rugby World Cup by Joe Schmidt.
Is that not more to do with a massive lack of options after Murray rather than their actual form? Surely you'd prefer to have better options at this stage for the RWC?
I think the main issue here is that we're almost certain to have the likes of McGrath and Marsh first or second choice for a large part of next season. Will the IRFU allow us to sign both a 9 and a 10 as cover? I'd be very, very surprised if they did. So where does that leave us for the 5+ months when the internationals are away/rested?
I've made this point before, but what young backs have gotten a chance under this coach? Are we to believe that all of SCM, COS, Hudson, Crosbie, Byrne, Daly, Marsh and McGrath simply aren't good enough? That would be a pretty poor indictment of the Academy if so. We've already discarded Macken, who in fairness isn't to the level required. Reid is about the only one who has gotten decent game time despite being injured a bit this season. But even at that he's been ignored with Mads moving to 12 this season.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I think people are getting "het up" because Reddan and Boss have been under performing for two seasons now and yet a former Ireland under 20 captain who has shown plenty of promise has not been trusted enough to develop. He makes mistakes and he's cast aside, they make mistakes and they're given chance after chance after chance. Other coaches didn't put such blind faith in older players regardless of their performances, hence why it's different regardless of whether you rate McGrath or not.
Of course they do, for example, Reddan and Boss despite 'under performing for two seasons now' both played in the last two Six Nations, and will probably be picked as SH2 and SH3 for the Rugby World Cup by Joe Schmidt.
due to the lack of options.. not due to outstanding or even very good consistent form. Marmion has regressed since christmas and failed to take advantage of his opportunity to overtake Boss.
Boss/Reddan's age wont hinder their ablity to play next September but post RWC they don't have long left at the top level.
That is why he was dropped after the Wolfhounds match, and rightly so. I've said it here before but Cooney has been better than him the few times I've seen them both play recently.
It has nothing to do with not giving one of our younger scrumhalfs some time.
Not exactly flaming hot stuff, but apparently Isa is nearly nailed on for a return with a view to moving him into a coaching position, Stringer is quite likely to come to Leinster, and the LB is sniffing around after Julian Savea.
I would have thought a high quality medium-term second row prospect was needed, but apparently if anything is happening in the second row, we'll be grabbing IQ overflow from the other three provinces
gfo wrote:Not exactly flaming hot stuff, but apparently Isa is nearly nailed on for a return with a view to moving him into a coaching position, Stringer is quite likely to come to Leinster, and the LB is sniffing around after Julian Savea.
I would have thought a high quality medium-term second row prospect was needed, but apparently if anything is happening in the second row, we'll be grabbing IQ overflow from the other three provinces
If we actually signed Savea I might actually wet myself with excitement. But it'd be an absolutely major coup if it happened. To get a name that big in the first place would be huge, but to beat out big money in Japan and France would be exceptional work.
Have we had a look at Nacewa conditioning-wise? if he has lost a step.....I have no doubt even his second best will give us more impetus than anything Kirchner has, but its sad to see former greats who cant cut it anymore, Nacewa shouldnt go through that.
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gfo wrote: LB is sniffing around after Julian Savea.
Don't do that man, don't do that.
jezzer wrote:He will never be the second coming of BOD, because the only thing their game shares is probably the appetite for work around the pitch. He'll hopefully be the first coming of Ringrose.
Marmion has regressed since christmas and failed to take advantage of his opportunity to overtake Boss.
Boss/Reddan's age wont hinder their ablity to play next September but post RWC they don't have long left at the top level.
That is why he was dropped after the Wolfhounds match, and rightly so. I've said it here before but Cooney has been better than him the few times I've seen them both play recently.
It has nothing to do with not giving one of our younger scrumhalfs some time.
Marmion picked up a knee injury during the 6 Nations and played through the pain for all of it. With that factored in I wouldn't be to hard on him. Cooney has being very impressive whenever I've seen him for Connacht.
gfo wrote:
I would have thought a high quality medium-term second row prospect was needed, but apparently if anything is happening in the second row, we'll be grabbing IQ overflow from the other three provinces
gfo wrote:
I would have thought a high quality medium-term second row prospect was needed, but apparently if anything is happening in the second row, we'll be grabbing IQ overflow from the other three provinces
I thought it was just us who did the scavenging
When we do it, its called taking overflow.
"That was shiterarse coaches need to look at themselves this is as bad at is.beem with school. Items impeovrnkyb neefedc"
Hopefully we can get another season out of Mickey Mac. Hopefully a rest and a good preseason can get the best out of Douglas.
Hopefully Mick Kearney can add to our depth behind International class Big Dev.
gfo wrote:
I would have thought a high quality medium-term second row prospect was needed, but apparently if anything is happening in the second row, we'll be grabbing IQ overflow from the other three provinces
I thought it was just us who did the scavenging
When we do it, its called taking overflow.
Ah right, so if you gather up one of our castoffs it will be actually overflow of one of our scavenged players!
johng wrote:Hopefully we can get another season out of Mickey Mac. Hopefully a rest and a good preseason can get the best out of Douglas.
Hopefully Mick Kearney can add to our depth behind International class Big Dev.
That's 3 hopefullys.
Won't we be relying on the former three as the latter one will be in the Ireland camp from August? Anyone know what kind of window of access the provinces will have to their internationals this year (allowing for a good run or otherwise in the world cup)?
"That was shiterarse coaches need to look at themselves this is as bad at is.beem with school. Items impeovrnkyb neefedc"
