Clermont - The Game

[bardcom]

Hey Leinster fans

Quiz here :
Bearing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMlDy2jP9s) in mind, do you think the ref was right to call Faure's pass at the 20th forward, on one of the rare occasions we clearly broke through in the game ?
I know in 99% of cases this is ruled incorrectly, the video really changed my way of looking at games.

Disclaimer - You sure deserve your victory, and I wish you all the best for the final, just asking for your opinion.

Allez les Bleus

*All* of those passes are forward. There's a very old argument about "momentum" but the law is clear (although the interpretation may differ and it's often impossible to spot). Did the player throw or pass the ball towards the opposing team's dead ball line? If you answer "No", then you're simply redefining the term "forward". It has nothing to do with "intention" or "momentum". If the ball is closer to the opposing team's dead ball line after the pass, it was thrown/passed forward. In every game, you'll find forward passes not detected.

So to answer your question - the ref was correct.

[sid]

If the ball is closer to the opposing team's dead ball line after the pass, it was thrown/passed forward.

And if it were reffed like that rugby would be a cr@p game that nobody would pay to see.

[Jaunard]

Jaunard - that video is incorrect in my view. In all those instances they demonstrate that the laws of physics can make it appear that the ball has gone back when in fact it has gone forward. This does not make the pass legal.

The definition in the Laws of the Game says that 'forward' means 'towards the opposing team's dead ball line'. All of those passes were towards the opposition dead ball line and therefore were forward passes.

The fact is that some passes are not given as forward when they should be because of the optical illusion. Far more forward passes are let go by refs than those that are incorrectly given.

On Faure's pass it looked harsh at the time but I do think the decision was correct. Are all similar passes penalised as forward? Certainly not.

You have a hell of a team Jaunard, one I am sure will win the HEC some day. I said after the game you have to lose one to win one. In the case of the Top 14 you had to lose nine to win one, but good luck in the final stages. There will be many Leinster fans up for Clermont to win again.

Thanks for the kind comments about ASM.
While I do understand that Faure's pass is open to interpretation, i do not quite understand how a training video for national referees could be incorrect.
The laws of the game actually say that "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line"
The verb is important : you can actually throw a ball backwards, which can still travel forward relatively to the point where it was thrown, and the video shows just that.
What matters is how you throw the ball (movement of shoulders and wrists), not where it connects.

[Lar]

Thanks for the kind comments about ASM.
While I do understand that Faure's pass is open to interpretation, i do not quite understand how a training video for national referees could be incorrect.

You don't? Are you suggesting National associations never get anything wrong? Really???

The laws of the game actually say that "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line"
The verb is important : you can actually throw a ball backwards, which can still travel forward relatively to the point where it was thrown, and the video shows just that.
What matters is how you throw the ball (movement of shoulders and wrists), not where it connects.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. My reading of the definition is that if the ball goes towards the opposition dead ball line it is forward. I think your interpretation would make it almost impossible for referees to decide whether a pass was forward or not. It is not that complicated.

[sid]

My reading of the definition is that if the ball goes towards the opposition dead ball line it is forward. I think your interpretation would make it almost impossible for referees to decide whether a pass was forward or not. It is not that complicated.

If that definition were used then virtually every single pass made by any player while running would be ruled as forward.

Hence my previous post.

[Jaunard]

Thanks for the kind comments about ASM.
While I do understand that Faure's pass is open to interpretation, i do not quite understand how a training video for national referees could be incorrect.

You don't? Are you suggesting National associations never get anything wrong? Really???

The laws of the game actually say that "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line"
The verb is important : you can actually throw a ball backwards, which can still travel forward relatively to the point where it was thrown, and the video shows just that.
What matters is how you throw the ball (movement of shoulders and wrists), not where it connects.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. My reading of the definition is that if the ball goes towards the opposition dead ball line it is forward. I think your interpretation would make it almost impossible for referees to decide whether a pass was forward or not. It is not that complicated.

it IS that complicated (whaddya think, the rule was written by the Brits), and that's why they get it wrong so often
It's ok, just try it in your next training, observe where the ball actually lands when you throw it backwards while running, or keep an eye on this particular aspect next time you watch a game, i find this very part of the game quite intriguing

[ronk]

While I do understand that Faure's pass is open to interpretation, i do not quite understand how a training video for national referees could be incorrect.
The laws of the game actually say that "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line"

The video is Australian.





The game fragments from time to time as different regions apply slightly different emphases to different parts of the game. Sometimes national refs are somewhat compliant, they're just doing what they're told. Last year the premiership had barely any contesting of possession at ruck time because refs were merciless with defenders who put hands in the ruck but allowed attackers off their feet and generally allowed ball carriers to hold for a period before releasing. The Australian game didn't really have the choke tackle, refs wouldn't have called maul so soon, generally allowed more time for the team in possession to get the ball back and would have penalised defenders quicker for not rolling away. Hence, the Australians were unprepared for our tactics in the World Cup, but the Welsh were. Giving the benefit of the doubt (for forward passes) to the team in possession encourages teams to run rather than kick, so it suits the style.

There isn't really an easy way to judge if a pass is thrown backwards by a player running forward and just because a player is behind the player throwing the ball, it doesn't mean the pass was backwards. It's really left to judgement. Sometimes they are called, often they are not.

[Jaunard]

Sometimes they are called, often they are not.

That's the whole point of the argument with the tackler : when you're tackled just after the pass, you can't run on to maintain the illusion that the pass is not going forward. So they call it forward. You run on they don't.

[thepunter]

Hey Leinster fans

Quiz here :


Allez les Bleus

Hey Jaunard- quiz here,

do you think Cudmore and Bardy should be cited for their dangerous, illegal behaviour?

[thepunter]

Jaunard - that video is incorrect in my view. In all those instances they demonstrate that the laws of physics can make it appear that the ball has gone back when in fact it has gone forward. This does not make the pass legal.

The definition in the Laws of the Game says that 'forward' means 'towards the opposing team's dead ball line'. All of those passes were towards the opposition dead ball line and therefore were forward passes.

The fact is that some passes are not given as forward when they should be because of the optical illusion. Far more forward passes are let go by refs than those that are incorrectly given.

On Faure's pass it looked harsh at the time but I do think the decision was correct. Are all similar passes penalised as forward? Certainly not.

You have a hell of a team Jaunard, one I am sure will win the HEC some day. I said after the game you have to lose one to win one. In the case of the Top 14 you had to lose nine to win one, but good luck in the final stages. There will be many Leinster fans up for Clermont to win again.

Not me, and a fair few other Leinster fans that I know wouldn't have any goodwill towards the team, whatever about the friendly fans.

From Parra in the Quarter-final v Saracens trying to con the ref and diving around like Ashley young, to Cudmore violently flooring Boss off the ball to slow down any ensuing breakdown on Clermont's line, to Bardy taking the opportunity to mill Leo Cullen out of it with his flying fat head, and fishhook him, when he was defenceless on top of bodies at the end of the game....I'll be firmly rooting against them for many years to come in the Top 14, and the HEC, and I hope they never win it. A dishonourable, cowardly shower indeed.

[Jaunard]

Hey Leinster fans

Quiz here :


Allez les Bleus

Hey Jaunard- quiz here,

do you think Cudmore and Bardy should be cited for their dangerous, illegal behaviour?

i have not seen the pictures
they were not shown on French TV I believe

[blues_fan]

Someone on here actually pointed me to this video, from the official IRB youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

It basically adopts the reasoning of the previous video, so the debate should end there.

[fourthirtythree]

At first glance I thought that was a forward pass and the ref had made a marginal but correct call. I think we were pretty lucky when I saw the replays just after it.

He also missed a couple of forward passes that were less marginal I thought. I'm glad nobody got a citing after the game. There were a couple of digs here and there but nothing unusual really. The headlock on Cullen at the end was clumsy in the first instance and nothing untoward really. Cudmore was, well there's a reason why Cudmore spent more time banned last year (or year before?) than playing. And Cullen's dig on Faure was on field justice made a meal of. I've no problem with that from either side. There's a good chance (from my interpretation of the ref) that if there hadn't been a dive after a sanction may have been applied.

[Sauvignon Blank]

The headlock on Cullen at the end was clumsy in the first instance and nothing untoward really. .

433, please tell me you are joking? There was absolutely nothing clumsy in what happened to Cullen in that ruck. He was smashed head on ffs, then got his head &jaw twisted/reefed in a violent manner.
Watch it again, it was shocking.

[Sauvignon Blank]

Not me, and a fair few other Leinster fans that I know wouldn't have any goodwill towards the team, whatever about the friendly fans.

From Parra in the Quarter-final v Saracens trying to con the ref and diving around like Ashley young, to Cudmore violently flooring Boss off the ball to slow down any ensuing breakdown on Clermont's line, to Bardy taking the opportunity to mill Leo Cullen out of it with his flying fat head, and fishhook him, when he was defenceless on top of bodies at the end of the game....I'll be firmly rooting against them for many years to come in the Top 14, and the HEC, and I hope they never win it. A dishonourable, cowardly shower indeed.

Good point Punter, although glossed over by a lot of our fans.

Yes, Les Auvergnats are very good supporters but their team has disrespected Leinster on a number of occasions. I remember them failing to applaud us off the pitch home and away in 2011, lot of cheap shots and striking Drico with foot and ball on the ground at the final whistle in the Aviva. Not to mention Johnny being taken out by Parra in the RDS, smashed jaw. Always a niggle when playing them.

[The Doc]

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. My reading of the definition is that if the ball goes towards the opposition dead ball line it is forward. I think your interpretation would make it almost impossible for referees to decide whether a pass was forward or not. It is not that complicated.

A forward pass is defined in relation to the direction of the ball leaving the passers hand - not by reference to the pitch. So for example, someone running towards the opposition line can pass a ball which is not a forward pass but it can land ahead of where the pass started - the forward momentum issue.

The definition is about the direction of the pass as it leaves the passer - not the flight of the ball

[Degz]

I suppose the pictures of Cullen squeezing Rougerie's nads hasn't made it on here?

[berniemac67]

I suppose the pictures of Cullen squeezing Rougerie's nads hasn't made it on here?

no leinster player would ever commit an act of foul play

[Degz]

I suppose the pictures of Cullen squeezing Rougerie's nads hasn't made it on here?

no leinster player would ever commit an act of foul play

Of course, it was a friendly gesture

[berniemac67]

I suppose the pictures of Cullen squeezing Rougerie's nads hasn't made it on here?

no leinster player would ever commit an act of foul play

Of course, it was a friendly gesture

he was just moving them out of the way so he could see play develop