His "Irish bias"! How dare he!!! [/quote]
Ok that was a stupid thing to say but as much as I like ross hes not the greatest in the loose to say the least! more of a hinderance than a help! even if you disagree that white is a better scrummager surely his work in the loose more than qualifies him to start?[/quote]
Well there's no doubt that White is better in the loose, but the scrum and ruck is where a prop earns his corn. In fairness White does appear to be a good scrummager- even if (apparently) not as good as Ross, so you have any argument there. But on balance I'd say we are not short of dynamic ball carriers in the squad and that Mike should start. But I would not rule out Nathan getting the nod for some future matches.
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
bluemagic wrote:
Completely disagree with you, White is better in the loose than Ross and better in the tight IMO. I think your Irish bias is blinding you a bit tbh
His "Irish bias"! How dare he!!!
Ok that was a stupid thing to say but as much as I like ross hes not the greatest in the loose to say the least! more of a hinderance than a help! even if you disagree that white is a better scrummager surely his work in the loose more than qualifies him to start?
Don't you think we've enough good loose forwards (not to mention Healy and Strauss) whose work in open play compensates for Ross' weakness in this department? There aren't too many props around who can scrummage like Mike and I include White in that.
White is undoubtedly a very good player (and an excellent signing for us) but I don't believe he should be our starting tighthead in the Heineken Cup.
The sport that unites Catholic, Protestant and dissenter has had its day of days. Pity anybody who can't enjoy it. Some day.
Ok that was a stupid thing to say but as much as I like ross hes not the greatest in the loose to say the least! more of a hinderance than a help! even if you disagree that white is a better scrummager surely his work in the loose more than qualifies him to start?
Don't you think we've enough good loose forwards (not to mention Healy and Strauss) whose work in open play compensates for Ross' weakness in this department? There aren't too many props around who can scrummage like Mike and I include White in that.
White is undoubtedly a very good player (and an excellent signing for us) but I don't believe he should be our starting tighthead in the Heineken Cup.
I have to say I honestly think White is at least on par if not a better scrummager..... It will be interesting to see who scrummages better when the other prop comes off the bench
**** LEINSTER Champions Of Europe 2009/2011/2012/2018 ****
Oh yeah completely agree with you! Wasn't too long ago we had no good props now we have 4!
The problem with comparing props always is that no two scrums are the same and when you take fatigue etc. into it you have to look over a long period to see who is better!
**** LEINSTER Champions Of Europe 2009/2011/2012/2018 ****
I don't know how anyone can say Heinke and White are better than Cian and Ross...
I think this season in particular has shown Heinke definitely has problem come scrum time, and the difference in the Leinster scrum when Cian is on is considerably noticeable. Cian is also far better in the tight and lose than Heinke. Van Der Merwe is no slouch and is a good replacement to have, but I'm honestly more leaning towards him being an average squad player who can do a job than anything special. I also think Healy has come on a lot technically in the last 2 seasons in particular, and is shaping up to be a top quality international prop (honest opinion, not blue or green tinted glasses - remember, he's only just turned 24 in the last couple of months, and has 2 Heineken Cup medals as first choice 1 throughout the campaign, and 25 Irish caps, all achieved by the age of 23).
As for White, I think he's done well, and has been a good signing, especially since Hagan is not as far developed as perhaps hoped, but I don't think he's been tested enough yet to say he's better than Ross in the scrum, and as the corner stone of our scrum, I would definitely have Ross ahead of him. He does appear good in the lose, better than Ross (who's a poor carrier imo), but he needs to be seriously tested before I'd have him ahead of Ross.
Pro12 Champions, Amlin Challenge Cup Champions, British & Irish Cup Champions
[Jackass] wrote:I don't know how anyone can say Heinke and White are better than Cian and Ross...
I think this season in particular has shown Heinke definitely has problem come scrum time, and the difference in the Leinster scrum when Cian is on is considerably noticeable. Cian is also far better in the tight and lose than Heinke. Van Der Merwe is no slouch and is a good replacement to have, but I'm honestly more leaning towards him being an average squad player who can do a job than anything special. I also think Healy has come on a lot technically in the last 2 seasons in particular, and is shaping up to be a top quality international prop (honest opinion, not blue or green tinted glasses - remember, he's only just turned 24 in the last couple of months, and has 2 Heineken Cup medals as first choice 1 throughout the campaign, and 25 Irish caps, all achieved by the age of 23).
As for White, I think he's done well, and has been a good signing, especially since Hagan is not as far developed as perhaps hoped, but I don't think he's been tested enough yet to say he's better than Ross in the scrum, and as the corner stone of our scrum, I would definitely have Ross ahead of him. He does appear good in the lose, better than Ross (who's a poor carrier imo), but he needs to be seriously tested before I'd have him ahead of Ross.
That's a very harsh assessment of a Van Der Merwe. Anyone remember toulouse last year? He had one game where he struggled against a monster pack who were top14 finalists last year and he's suddenly only a squad player?
"everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face" - Mike Tyson
Well, I'm mainly forming that opinion from this season. Particularly comparing our scrum performance when Healy is on vs when Van Der Merwe is. Honestly, I think he's only an ok scrummager, better packs can go through him. I definitely think this season he has struggled a number of times in the scrum. I rate him, but it's definitely not a knee-jerk reaction like you suggest, or blindly looking at one game a long time ago either.
Pro12 Champions, Amlin Challenge Cup Champions, British & Irish Cup Champions
[Jackass] wrote:Well, I'm mainly forming that opinion from this season. Particularly comparing our scrum performance when Healy is on vs when Van Der Merwe is. Honestly, I think he's only an ok scrummager, better packs can go through him. I definitely think this season he has struggled a number of times in the scrum. I rate him, but it's definitely not a knee-jerk reaction like you suggest, or blindly looking at one game a long time ago either.
I've been pretty happy with van der Merwe's performances this season, and was very happy with his contributions last season. Aside from the scrummaging, he's an absolutely phenomenal tackler - great technique, really well balanced and huge hitting power.
Well, fair enough, the use of the word average is harsh, but I do think he's a good squad player to rotate in to the starting 15 and solid enough coming off the bench, but my whole point originally was about a comment the Heinke was ahead of Healy and White ahead of Ross.
Pro12 Champions, Amlin Challenge Cup Champions, British & Irish Cup Champions
I'd personally like to see Isa and Rob and Dave in the back three but I cant see Luke being dropped so can't see Dave starting although it would be well deserved especially after Fri's performance but if the doesn't get even the bench it would be quite baffling.
I'd also like to keep O'malley and McFadden at centre..... i wouldn't like to be Joe anyway
Laura F wrote:Does anyone know how bad RK's injury is?
I'd personally like to see Isa and Rob and Dave in the back three but I cant see Luke being dropped so can't see Dave starting although it would be well deserved especially after Fri's performance but if the doesn't get even the bench it would be quite baffling.
I'd also like to keep O'malley and McFadden at centre..... i wouldn't like to be Joe anyway
I didnt even know RK was injured?
**** LEINSTER Champions Of Europe 2009/2011/2012/2018 ****
RK was limping around after he came on, but was fine to play on. I was hanging around after the game and wandered over to the dressing rooms. When he came out he was moving fine and seemed to be in good spirits. Hopefully it was just one of those little niggles.
Laura F wrote:Does anyone know how bad RK's injury is?
I'd personally like to see Isa and Rob and Dave in the back three but I cant see Luke being dropped so can't see Dave starting although it would be well deserved especially after Fri's performance but if the doesn't get even the bench it would be quite baffling.
I'd also like to keep O'malley and McFadden at centre..... i wouldn't like to be Joe anyway
I didnt even know RK was injured?
Yea first tackle he got into he hopped out off and was hopping around the place for the rest of the game but I'm guessing its not overly serious as it hasn't been spoken about yet
I'd have Toner in the side. The Bath line out is all over the place currently and he should have a field day on their ball. Would aim just to take them on up front and at set piece and slot any penalty opportunities. They've some decent backs but only if they're getting clean ball.
16 Strauss
17 Van der Merwe
18 White
19 Toner
20 McLaughlin
21 Boss
22 Madigan
23 McFadden
This is a team to go out and play right through Bath. Leaving Ferg out in particular is harsh, maybe Toner too, but that's my preferred XXIII.
Joe won't pick that team. Dave Kearney won't even make the bench.
Good team there Jezzer.
If Rob K is hurt, it's a possibility. If not I suspect Joe might play the same backline as Glasgow. Most likely Ferg and Toner will get the nod if Rob is out.
Bath line-out is under pressure with the USA hooker only in camp for the past 10 days. We must play Devan & Leo in the row. As stated elsewhere, Bath coach Steve Meehan prefers to play a game at pace but they do not have a front five capable of surviving a multi-phase game at pace. Wilson & Flatman can scrummage and maul but cannot get to the third or subsequent ruck. Caldwell and Atwood (ex-Gloucester) are competent but can be ruck penalty-machines if the pace of the game gets quick.However, they potentially have an excellent back-row (particularly Rob Louw) and a good half back combination and Hipkiss and Banaghan in the centre are a mixture than could cause Darcy & O'Malley problems with their physicality.
Despite the apparent mis-match in results thus far in the season between ourselves and Bath, this is a game I worry about - precisely because of that mis-match and what that can do to our mind set. Bath are one of three English clubs with a successful tradition and expectation (Leicester and Northampton make up the triumverate). They should never be dismissed because of that heritage.
Ruckedtobits wrote:Bath line-out is under pressure with the USA hooker only in camp for the past 10 days. We must play Devan & Leo in the row. As stated elsewhere, Bath coach Steve Meehan prefers to play a game at pace but they do not have a front five capable of surviving a multi-phase game at pace. Wilson & Flatman can scrummage and maul but cannot get to the third or subsequent ruck. Caldwell and Atwood (ex-Gloucester) are competent but can be ruck penalty-machines if the pace of the game gets quick.However, they potentially have an excellent back-row (particularly Rob Louw) and a good half back combination and Hipkiss and Banaghan in the centre are a mixture than could cause Darcy & O'Malley problems with their physicality.
Despite the apparent mis-match in results thus far in the season between ourselves and Bath, this is a game I worry about - precisely because of that mis-match and what that can do to our mind set. Bath are one of three English clubs with a successful tradition and expectation (Leicester and Northampton make up the triumverate). They should never be dismissed because of that heritage.
It's to play a multiphase game that I went with Browne, but I take your point. As to their heritage, I totally agree. I hate to see teams with great pedigrees be dismissed on the board. I have to say though that the standard of all the AP teams is very underwhelming. The HEC powerhouses are always capable of raising it for the Cup but I just can't see Bath turning us over. Screw the Mocker gods. Just can't see it.
How dare he!!! 
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