A whiff of Cordite

[SoupyNorman]

Yeah, it's not that long ago he was talking up Lucas Berti Newman as the next BOD, without ever disclosing that he was good mates with and worked with the kid's father. He is notorious for it.

As bad as the days as when Frankie Sheahan used to do co-comms back in the day, while double jobbing as a rugby agent, and regardless of performance one of Frankie's clients was invariably MoTM.

Haha remmeber Munster losing 7-0. David Wallace gets replaced. Then ends up with Munster winning 28-7. Frankie gives his client man of the match (Obviously David Wallace was an awesome player and wasn't necessarily bad that match but nowhere near MOTM performance.)

[hugonaut]

If Munster hadn't spunked a load of budget ... maybe they'd have the budget to go after a real big name front rower AND kept John Ryan.

Why should the IRFU give even more money to a club that clearly has been so badly run for years?

This is a little alongside the point rather than to it, but it's really worth bearing in mind that of Munster's coterie of props born 1988-90, thus U20s in 2008-10 i.e. Archer [258 Munster apps], Kilcoyne [215 Munster apps], Ryan [205 Munster apps], and Cronin [143 Munster apps], only one of them – Archer, funnily enough – played for the Irish U20s.

Tony McGahan [in particular] and Rob Penney brought in these guys who for the most part didn't have much age-grade representative rugby on their CVs and coached them pretty quickly into pros. And this is well into the Celtic League era, so the 'hard school of the AIL' trope isn't all that applicable ... with the exception of John Ryan, who was cut from the Munster sub-academy and worked his way into the squad via performances in the AIL in 2010-12 period.

Kilcoyne was first capped by Ireland in 2012 [Kidney], Archer in 2013 [Kidney], Cronin in 2014 [Schmidt] and Ryan in 2016 [Schmidt].

There is something that I don't understand here. None of these lads are once-in-a-generation physical specimens. They weren't underage superstars. They are basically heavy-set lads around 183cm/6' [three of them, Archer being taller at 188cm/6'2"] and between 111-118kg [17.5st - 19st]. You wouldn't think that is an impossible physical profile to match in the province's rugby genepool. They got brought into the Munster Academy, got coached, trained hard, turned pro, played games, learnt on the job, went on to play loads of games for their province. But Munster have really struggled to do that in the last decade.

They had a 185cm/122kg multiple-times All-Ireland schools shot-put champion – James French – in their senior squad for the last couple of seasons. He had a full stint in the academy and played in all five games of the 2018 U20 Six Nations. He was given one game last season when they had nobody else to select [against Wasps when the rest of their squad were stuck in SA with covid] and then let go last month with more than a year left on his contract.

Look at this team-sheet from the 2018 U20 Six Nations game vs Scotland: https://www.the42.ie/james-french-irela ... 4-Mar2018/

A front row of James French, Ronan Kelleher, Tom O'Toole. Obviously not everybody on that team has hit the same heights as Kelleher and O'Toole, but it baffles me that Munster – the Munster Academy, the senior coaches, the executive – get a local guy with that physical capability into the organisation and then don't or can't do anything with him. That's the f*cking job. What's the point of having an academy and development contracts if you don't get a pro prop out of those raw materials, especially when you need props?

It's not like it's a one-off. Apart from Wycherley Jnr, the only other Munster-born prop younger than 34 in the squad is Liam O'Connor, who has been a wash-out for years. Their other props are from Leinster [Loughman], Hawaii [Salanoa] and South Africa [Knox]

If French didn't want to be in the academy, he would have left it. If he didn't want to play professionally, he wouldn't have signed a senior deal. If Munster didn't want him to play professionally, why did they offer him a senior deal, and then re-sign him to a longer deal? I'd be fascinated to see those questions asked and answered.

[The Doc]

If Munster hadn't spunked a load of budget ... maybe they'd have the budget to go after a real big name front rower AND kept John Ryan.

Why should the IRFU give even more money to a club that clearly has been so badly run for years?

This is a little alongside the point rather than to it, but it's really worth bearing in mind that of Munster's coterie of props born 1988-90, thus U20s in 2008-10 i.e. Archer [258 Munster apps], Kilcoyne [215 Munster apps], Ryan [205 Munster apps], and Cronin [143 Munster apps], only one of them – Archer, funnily enough – played for the Irish U20s.

Tony McGahan [in particular] and Rob Penney brought in these guys who for the most part didn't have much age-grade representative rugby on their CVs and coached them pretty quickly into pros. And this is well into the Celtic League era, so the 'hard school of the AIL' trope isn't all that applicable ... with the exception of John Ryan, who was cut from the Munster sub-academy and worked his way into the squad via performances in the AIL in 2010-12 period.

Kilcoyne was first capped by Ireland in 2012 [Kidney], Archer in 2013 [Kidney], Cronin in 2014 [Schmidt] and Ryan in 2016 [Schmidt].

There is something that I don't understand here. None of these lads are once-in-a-generation physical specimens. They weren't underage superstars. They are basically heavy-set lads around 183cm/6' [three of them, Archer being taller at 188cm/6'2"] and between 111-118kg [17.5st - 19st]. You wouldn't think that is an impossible physical profile to match in the province's rugby genepool. They got brought into the Munster Academy, got coached, trained hard, turned pro, played games, learnt on the job, went on to play loads of games for their province. But Munster have really struggled to do that in the last decade.

They had a 185cm/122kg multiple-times All-Ireland schools shot-put champion – James French – in their senior squad for the last couple of seasons. He had a full stint in the academy and played in all five games of the 2018 U20 Six Nations. He was given one game last season when they had nobody else to select [against Wasps when the rest of their squad were stuck in SA with covid] and then let go last month with more than a year left on his contract.

Look at this team-sheet from the 2018 U20 Six Nations game vs Scotland: https://www.the42.ie/james-french-irela ... 4-Mar2018/

A front row of James French, Ronan Kelleher, Tom O'Toole. Obviously not everybody on that team has hit the same heights as Kelleher and O'Toole, but it baffles me that Munster – the Munster Academy, the senior coaches, the executive – get a local guy with that physical capability into the organisation and then don't or can't do anything with him. That's the f*cking job. What's the point of having an academy and development contracts if you don't get a pro prop out of those raw materials, especially when you need props?

It's not like it's a one-off. Apart from Wycherley Jnr, the only other Munster-born prop younger than 34 in the squad is Liam O'Connor, who has been a wash-out for years. Their other props are from Leinster [Loughman], Hawaii [Salanoa] and South Africa [Knox]

If French didn't want to be in the academy, he would have left it. If he didn't want to play professionally, he wouldn't have signed a senior deal. If Munster didn't want him to play professionally, why did they offer him a senior deal, and then re-sign him to a longer deal? I'd be fascinated to see those questions asked and answered.

What we need, Hugo, is some sort of draft system to even out the natural advantage Leinster have with all the props in the schools

Sent from my LE2123 using Tapatalk

[ronk]

If Munster hadn't spunked a load of budget ... maybe they'd have the budget to go after a real big name front rower AND kept John Ryan.

Why should the IRFU give even more money to a club that clearly has been so badly run for years?

This is a little alongside the point rather than to it, but it's really worth bearing in mind that of Munster's coterie of props born 1988-90, thus U20s in 2008-10 i.e. Archer [258 Munster apps], Kilcoyne [215 Munster apps], Ryan [205 Munster apps], and Cronin [143 Munster apps], only one of them – Archer, funnily enough – played for the Irish U20s.

Tony McGahan [in particular] and Rob Penney brought in these guys who for the most part didn't have much age-grade representative rugby on their CVs and coached them pretty quickly into pros. And this is well into the Celtic League era, so the 'hard school of the AIL' trope isn't all that applicable ... with the exception of John Ryan, who was cut from the Munster sub-academy and worked his way into the squad via performances in the AIL in 2010-12 period.

Kilcoyne was first capped by Ireland in 2012 [Kidney], Archer in 2013 [Kidney], Cronin in 2014 [Schmidt] and Ryan in 2016 [Schmidt].

There is something that I don't understand here. None of these lads are once-in-a-generation physical specimens. They weren't underage superstars. They are basically heavy-set lads around 183cm/6' [three of them, Archer being taller at 188cm/6'2"] and between 111-118kg [17.5st - 19st]. You wouldn't think that is an impossible physical profile to match in the province's rugby genepool. They got brought into the Munster Academy, got coached, trained hard, turned pro, played games, learnt on the job, went on to play loads of games for their province. But Munster have really struggled to do that in the last decade.

They had a 185cm/122kg multiple-times All-Ireland schools shot-put champion – James French – in their senior squad for the last couple of seasons. He had a full stint in the academy and played in all five games of the 2018 U20 Six Nations. He was given one game last season when they had nobody else to select [against Wasps when the rest of their squad were stuck in SA with covid] and then let go last month with more than a year left on his contract.

Look at this team-sheet from the 2018 U20 Six Nations game vs Scotland: https://www.the42.ie/james-french-irela ... 4-Mar2018/

A front row of James French, Ronan Kelleher, Tom O'Toole. Obviously not everybody on that team has hit the same heights as Kelleher and O'Toole, but it baffles me that Munster – the Munster Academy, the senior coaches, the executive – get a local guy with that physical capability into the organisation and then don't or can't do anything with him. That's the f*cking job. What's the point of having an academy and development contracts if you don't get a pro prop out of those raw materials, especially when you need props?

It's not like it's a one-off. Apart from Wycherley Jnr, the only other Munster-born prop younger than 34 in the squad is Liam O'Connor, who has been a wash-out for years. Their other props are from Leinster [Loughman], Hawaii [Salanoa] and South Africa [Knox]

If French didn't want to be in the academy, he would have left it. If he didn't want to play professionally, he wouldn't have signed a senior deal. If Munster didn't want him to play professionally, why did they offer him a senior deal, and then re-sign him to a longer deal? I'd be fascinated to see those questions asked and answered.

Munster are capable of developing when they can get out of their own way. They're rarely motivated to put the hard work in. Early pro era they decided on young pros rather than going for amateurs who turned pro late, and it paid off, but it was fueled by a hypercompetitive work ethic that was almost anti-talent. And really hard to develop through.

After 2009 gaps appeared in the squad and they developed a few players but then they lost interest and patience.

BJ Botha got a contract extension on a clear promise that they would have to develop props and the IRFU stuck to their guns, Munster haven't signed a prop into their 23. But they trained up what they had, they didn't develop guys with a higher ceiling. And Munster got amazing production out of guys who almost didn't have pro careers at all.

With no incentive to push they let lads coast. There's room in the academy and budget around the fringes of the squad. Most of them never get real chances or a 2nd thought.

Workers with limited athleticism and the right attitude have gotten chances, like the Wycherleys.

It's hard to look at the acquisitions of players like Matt Gallagher and conclude other than that there is no masterplan.

I'm not sure yet whether they've turned a corner or they're just skidding again. That's 2 really bad losses after 3 fixtures that were pretty much walkover during the 6N.

[mildlyinterested]

Good ole lukey advocating for Jack Boyle to move to Munster on his podcast.

[CiaranIrl]

Good ole lukey advocating for Jack Boyle to move to Munster on his podcast.

My least favourite phrase in rugby circles is 'you can only get better with game time'. It's such a lazy cliche. No, coaching, training, repetition, fitness, practice etc etc.also play a massive role. If any young player thinks they'll get better, faster by moving south, they have a screw loose.

[riocard911]

Good ole lukey advocating for Jack Boyle to move to Munster on his podcast.

I'm glad to say I gave up listening to Luke's banter-round years ago.

[Theleinsterlad]

Good ole lukey advocating for Jack Boyle to move to Munster on his podcast.

My least favourite phrase in rugby circles is 'you can only get better with game time'. It's such a lazy cliche. No, coaching, training, repetition, fitness, practice etc etc.also play a massive role. If any young player thinks they'll get better, faster by moving south, they have a screw loose.

Carberry is now a great example like Johnny was when he went to racing. Joey was on a steep upward curve in his skill when he was at Leinster like all his team mates from that generation. He went to Munster and has only gone backwards. If I was Boyle looking at this I would be thinking if I want to hit the very top making it happen in Leinster will get me there much quicker than maybe getting more game time in a team not currently reputed with improving players - though this could change

[mildlyinterested]

Direct quote from Thornley on MNR on what Leinster are doing at the moment:

"And yet they owe it all literally to Munster"

[Keith]

The 42 podcast today is worth listening to, if only to hear the most obvious 'my mate is a coach and wants this message out in the media' example I've heard for years.

Lots of praise for Leinster etc, but the big talking point was Berch hammering home the point that Munster's coaches can only do so much and need big NIQ front row signings to compete.

Very little actual analysis of where Munster lost that game, which had little to do with the front row.

All about putting pressure on the IRFU to sing guys.

Now, without getting into conspiracy theories, who exactly do you think might have been texting Berch yesterday and asking him to sow that seed? What Munster coach has he constantly praised and defended?

He's a habit of doing this (using media to sow seeds that benefit him or his mates/players), and while he's a great analyst, it's so transparent and shreds your credibility.

Is he right though? The NIQ framework was about building depth for Ireland and IMO it’s worked, we have depth now. Given most of it comes from Leinster there’s maybe scope to loosen up the restrictions for the other provinces. It’s a better idea than cannibalising Leinster to try and prop up the other 3 IMO. TBC, I’m not saying scrap it just think if there’s little ROI in terms of players from Munster(front row) for team Ireland then is it really worth sticking to it so strictly?

And Munster have tried to keep it IQ, they signed Knox as a teenager and salanoa on the TH side and brought in loughman on the LH side. Had a few bad injuries at hooker and well as a kiwi project.

This is something I've been thinking of too. If Ulster are allowed sign both Kitshoff and JTA, then we may well be seeing a loosening of the rules.

I think a case by case basis is far more beneficial. For instance there's no reason why Munster shouldn't be allowed sign a NIQ hooker (if the budget is there) given the depth Ireland has at hooker. I've also thought Connacht shouldn't be held to the same strict NIQ rules as the other provinces. I'm not saying let them sign 23 NIQ lads, but If there are glaring holes in a number of positions in the squad and the right IQ player isn't available, let them look abroad.

[alanair]

Good ole lukey advocating for Jack Boyle to move to Munster on his podcast.

My least favourite phrase in rugby circles is 'you can only get better with game time'. It's such a lazy cliche. No, coaching, training, repetition, fitness, practice etc etc.also play a massive role. If any young player thinks they'll get better, faster by moving south, they have a screw loose.

Carberry is now a great example like Johnny was when he went to racing. Joey was on a steep upward curve in his skill when he was at Leinster like all his team mates from that generation. He went to Munster and has only gone backwards. If I was Boyle looking at this I would be thinking if I want to hit the very top making it happen in Leinster will get me there much quicker than maybe getting more game time in a team not currently reputed with improving players - though this could change

I wonder if we offered Joey a spot back here ( not at 10 of course) , could we un-do all the bad stuff thats been programmed into him over the last few years…. Or is he beyond redemption ??

[ronk]

My least favourite phrase in rugby circles is 'you can only get better with game time'. It's such a lazy cliche. No, coaching, training, repetition, fitness, practice etc etc.also play a massive role. If any young player thinks they'll get better, faster by moving south, they have a screw loose.

Carberry is now a great example like Johnny was when he went to racing. Joey was on a steep upward curve in his skill when he was at Leinster like all his team mates from that generation. He went to Munster and has only gone backwards. If I was Boyle looking at this I would be thinking if I want to hit the very top making it happen in Leinster will get me there much quicker than maybe getting more game time in a team not currently reputed with improving players - though this could change

I wonder if we offered Joey a spot back here ( not at 10 of course) , could we un-do all the bad stuff thats been programmed into him over the last few years…. Or is he beyond redemption ??

About as much an Ian Madigan getting the Ireland 10 jersey and becoming the heir to Sexton finally.

[Theleinsterlad]

My least favourite phrase in rugby circles is 'you can only get better with game time'. It's such a lazy cliche. No, coaching, training, repetition, fitness, practice etc etc.also play a massive role. If any young player thinks they'll get better, faster by moving south, they have a screw loose.

Carberry is now a great example like Johnny was when he went to racing. Joey was on a steep upward curve in his skill when he was at Leinster like all his team mates from that generation. He went to Munster and has only gone backwards. If I was Boyle looking at this I would be thinking if I want to hit the very top making it happen in Leinster will get me there much quicker than maybe getting more game time in a team not currently reputed with improving players - though this could change

I wonder if we offered Joey a spot back here ( not at 10 of course) , could we un-do all the bad stuff thats been programmed into him over the last few years…. Or is he beyond redemption ??

I would say yes on how I’m my eyes Jenkins has improved since coming to us. Joey needs the pressure lifted off him and someone to believe in the skills he possesses not wanting him to change to something he’s not. I think the coaching setup in Leinster was doing that for him when playing him at 15

[bronxbull]

Joey had some good moments at full back, namely the Wasps MOTM performance,but I was never totally convinced he enjoyed playing there.
Even that MOTM performance was not a Rob Kearney Lions type performance, it was his magic with ball in hand.
I definitely would not think he was a good a defender as Girvan or Hugo.
I never recall Girvan,Rob or Hugo Keenan chasing the ball as much at full back as I remember Joey doing.

Obviously all fullbacks get caught out at times but it appeared that Rob Kearney or Isa in particular were usually facing a high kick and Joey seemed to be turned with the number 15 showing as he chased the ball back towards his own try line.
It appeared that either he wasn't reading the game, like Isa for example, or he was more interested in attacking than defending.
As a passer, runner in broken field and two footed kicker Joey was/is a beautiful footballer to watch.
I would imagine that Joey has a pretty good goal kicking percentage as well.
I was just never really sure what his best position was and he wasn't better than anyone on that 2018 HC winning team either at 10,12 or 15.

I think it would probably be best for Joey to move on from Munster perhaps up North, where he probably should have gone 5 years ago.

[LeinsterLeader]

Direct quote from Thornley on MNR on what Leinster are doing at the moment:

"And yet they owe it all literally to Munster"

Eh, how's that then?

[Avenger]

Good ole lukey advocating for Jack Boyle to move to Munster on his podcast.

Christ he is painful.
At least Tracey was putting up the argument that its not all just about population and demographics. Ya know... maybe good coaching has a bit to do with it.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Direct quote from Thornley on MNR on what Leinster are doing at the moment:

"And yet they owe it all literally to Munster"

Eh, how's that then?

Well, it’s because Garret Fitzgerald once said to Gerrard Thornley in an imagined conversation that he couldn’t believe that Munster had outperformed Leinster for so long in the 2000’s.

Good auld Gerry - cutting edge journalism right there…

[RoboProp]

Direct quote from Thornley on MNR on what Leinster are doing at the moment:

"And yet they owe it all literally to Munster"

Eh, how's that then?

Well, it’s because Garret Fitzgerald once said to Gerrard Thornley in an imagined conversation that he couldn’t believe that Munster had outperformed Leinster for so long in the 2000’s.

Good auld Gerry - cutting edge journalism right there…

Gervaise Thornley, not Gerrard. Gerry really is the L plate of rugby punditry. He reminds of those old school, unkempt journos who have good connections and slight bit of insight, you know the ones who drench themselves in Drakkar Noir to drown the bouquet of Drambuie

[Oldschoolsocks]

Eh, how's that then?

Well, it’s because Garret Fitzgerald once said to Gerrard Thornley in an imagined conversation that he couldn’t believe that Munster had outperformed Leinster for so long in the 2000’s.

Good auld Gerry - cutting edge journalism right there…

Gervaise Thornley, not Gerrard. Gerry really is the L plate of rugby punditry. He reminds of those old school, unkempt journos who have good connections and slight bit of insight, you know the ones who drench themselves in Drakkar Noir to drown the bouquet of Drambuie

[blockhead]

Direct quote from Thornley on MNR on what Leinster are doing at the moment:

"And yet they owe it all literally to Munster"

Yeah I heard that one, nearly pissed myself.