A whiff of Cordite

A forum for true blue Leinster supporters to talk about and support their team

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Oldschool
Cian Healy
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Oldschool »

RoboProp wrote: May 24th, 2022, 9:11 am
Dave Cahill wrote: May 23rd, 2022, 8:32 pm Are there actually people who think Ulster will beat Munster? Have they never seen an Ulster team in a big game? This is a team that makes Leinster 2002 - 2007 look like early 70s Leeds in terms of mental fortitude
I know Ulster have a propensity to fold faster than Superman on laundry day, but there is still hope they'll do a number on them.
I will presume Leeds in the 70s were muck, knowing nothing about football, and also I'm not that old :D
Leeds were perennial underachievers.
Manager was Don Revie - you could see aging visibly every time his team imploded. Maybe his evident lack of confidence fed his team's insecurities.
Maybe some players had too much influence - The black book holder?
But their goalie was a problem.
A great goalie but guaranteed to make a faux pas at vital times in important games. Gary Sprake by name.
So many great players hard to believe they achieved so little (relatively speaking).
John Giles, Billy Bremner, Black Jack Charlton (his little black book), Norman (bite your legs) Hunter, Eddie Gray - just to mention a few.
One of the most unloved (unfairly) teams of their era.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
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bluemagic
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by bluemagic »

Back to the rugby….

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hein ... -9fq9khgdv

According to Stuart Barnes if we’d beaten the top team in England away by less and Toulouse had run us closer we’d be considered a great team.
**** LEINSTER Champions Of Europe 2009/2011/2012/2018 ****
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blockhead
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by blockhead »

Coud you c&p it maybe?
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
mildlyinterested
Leo Cullen
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by mildlyinterested »

blockhead wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:49 pm Coud you c&p it maybe?
La Rochelle stand between Leinster and a fifth European title. It may just be that this high-calibre international team — which masquerades as a European Rugby Champions Cup side — is the best in the history of the competition. Yet they will not go down in rugby legend. Not unless their old adversary Ronan O’Gara can conjure a performance from their French opponents, the like of which we have yet to see.

Greatness is one thing, legendary status quite another. O’Gara’s Munster were the perennial heroic losers with the fanatical following. The Holy Grail, as the Heineken Cup was once known in Limerick, Cork and all parts Munster, was about nothing else but grasping the trophy. To hell with aesthetics.

This Leinster have, to date, been simply too good, too accurate and too overwhelming for their opposition. If Saturday’s final in Marseille goes as every other Leinster match has, there will be neither dreams nor songs to sing for this superlative European side.

The Leinster legends of 2011 will take some knocking off their pedestal. In that Cardiff final, the Irishmen fought back from 22-6 down at half-time to stun Northampton Saints.

The story of Johnny Sexton’s half-time team talk, summoning the spirit of Istanbul — Liverpool’s epic comeback from 3-0 down in the Champions League final against AC Milan in 2005 — now that is the stuff of legend. As was the individual performance of the fly half. In the second half, Leinster scored 27 unanswered points, with Sexton contributing a match tally of 28 points in one of the greatest individual displays.

With four winners’ medals already to his name, Sexton is both a great and a legend. But for his team to be remembered as the latter, they will need a similar sort of comeback, or a win with 13 players for 70 minutes; something to force them to scrap.

Until now it has been far too easy. Montpellier sent a second team to Dublin and lost 89-7. Bath actually produced their best performance this season in going down 45-20 in Ireland before Leinster hit them for 64-7 at the Recreation Ground.

Contrast that with the 2011 team, who scraped through a pool game at Wembley against Saracens 25-23 and were defeated away to Clermont, in the days when everyone lost in the Auvergne. Getting out of the pool required hard graft as opposed to this season’s breeze.

In theory, Connacht gave them their tightest tie of the tournament so far this season, losing 26-21 at home, but this was the two-legged round-of-16 stage. By full-time in Dublin, Leinster had scored double the Connacht tally at 82-41.

Leicester Tigers away in the last eight was perceived as a potential threat. The final score of 14-23 to Leinster suggests they were forced to fight for the win but Leicester’s late try was an added-time consolation after the Irish province had raced into a never-to-be-threatened 20-0 half-time lead.

Next up in the semi-finals were the champions; a tired Toulouse team, hungover from their excess of trophies with both club and country. They were devoured 40-17. The first half in Leicester was magnificent. Against Toulouse, Leinster were far too good for the only team to have won five Champions Cups until now. But these routs are soon forgotten.

That 33-22 victory against Northampton 11 years ago was unforgettable. That team had a few flaws. One year later they defended their crown with a 42-14 demolition job on Ulster. It was majestic but not memorable.

And so to Saturday. Finals have a way of freaking out favourites. The pressure to win can crush the quality of any side. I think back to New Zealand, freezing against a far inferior France in the 2011 World Cup final in Auckland and almost losing what was near-impossible to lose. The same great rugby nation were stunned by South Africa in the 1995 final. They were a wonderful team who, one year later, became the first All Blacks side to win a series in South Africa. They are legends.

The 2021-22 Heineken Champions Cup has been damaged by the pandemic. Eleven pool games were either 28-0 or 0-0 as Covid claimed its victims. Sexton’s side did “lose” one pool game to Montpellier 28-0, but unlike their 2011 precursors they didn’t even take to the field.

In the seven games they have played, the average scoreline has been 49-15 in Leinster’s favour. I have heard many a voice in the press boxes suggesting the quality of the teams in this tournament is not up to much.

Anyone who endured the scruffy, error-ridden semi-final between La Rochelle and Racing 92 might agree with this season’s European detractors. In Uini Atonio, Grégory Alldritt and Jonathan Danty, let us hope that La Rochelle have some grand-slam winners capable of merging with the likes of Victor Vito to raise their team’s game.

Having lost both the Champions Cup and the Top 14 final to Toulouse last season, it may be that La Rochelle have shrugged off any nerves. However, French rugby is famed for the tentative nature of their finals, and tentative will not be enough against Leinster.

The Irish side have greatness in their own hands but a bold show — and a proper test — is required from the French if they are to be anointed legends.
mildlyinterested
Leo Cullen
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by mildlyinterested »

I dont care what anyone has to say, just win and get that 5th star.
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blockhead
Rob Kearney
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by blockhead »

mildlyinterested wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:57 pm I dont care what anyone has to say, just win and get that 5th star.
Cheers mildly.
Yep thats what its all about.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
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riocard911
Shane Jennings
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by riocard911 »

blockhead wrote: May 26th, 2022, 8:06 pm
mildlyinterested wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:57 pm I dont care what anyone has to say, just win and get that 5th star.
Cheers mildly.
Yep thats what its all about.
100%. Get the job done and **** the begrudgers!
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Dexter
Shane Horgan
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Dexter »

I stopped reading it after the 1st few lines...
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Ray Donovan
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Ray Donovan »

What an absolutely ridiculous article.
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blockhead
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by blockhead »

The begrudgery would have some (if only a little validity) if Leinster were a team of world reknowned talent assembled by a club with a rich benefactor, ala Toulon/Saracens.
But we are the opposite of that, we have grown our own, structure, coaching, players.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
The Doc
Rhys Ruddock
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by The Doc »

Similar articles got written about the All Blacks... Or the New England Patriots... Or whoever. It'll be forgotten in a couple of days either way

Barnes was on Second Captains last week and essentially said he has to write an article about how Leinster can be beaten in the week before and that he was struggling to come up with a column. This is his alternative copy. Tomorrow it will be about how LAR don't have a hope

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Laighin Break
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Laighin Break »

Have to just love his bitterness!
"This high-calibre international team — which masquerades as a European Rugby Champions Cup side". They don't say the same about Treviso or Edinburgh/Glasgow who must have a similar amount of internationals as Leinster
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hugonaut
Shane Jennings
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by hugonaut »

mildlyinterested wrote: May 26th, 2022, 7:57 pm I dont care what anyone has to say, just win and get that 5th star.
Amen brother.
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Serb
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Serb »

Laighin Break wrote:Have to just love his bitterness!
"This high-calibre international team — which masquerades as a European Rugby Champions Cup side". They don't say the same about Treviso or Edinburgh/Glasgow who must have a similar amount of internationals as Leinster
That’s because they’re all missing the high-calibre bit Image
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blaker
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by blaker »

I……kinda agree with him?

He says - and I agree - that we are a brilliant side. I’d argue that most that win the Heino are. But that there hasn’t been a standout “folklore” type moment like the Northampton final? Feels so far like a profession. That’s because of how good we’ve been but still

His comment on 2012 overlooks the Clermont epic but still

(Acknowledge the mocker gods)
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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

blaker wrote: May 27th, 2022, 12:26 am I……kinda agree with him?

He says - and I agree - that we are a brilliant side. I’d argue that most that win the Heino are. But that there hasn’t been a standout “folklore” type moment like the Northampton final? Feels so far like a profession. That’s because of how good we’ve been but still

His comment on 2012 overlooks the Clermont epic but still

(Acknowledge the mocker gods)
If we win on Saturday, and for me that’s still a big IF, I think our demolition of Toulouse should be something looked back on as almost mythical.

I know this season doesn’t have the emotional weight of the turnaround vs Northampton nor beating Munster in Croker followed up appropriately with Rocky Elsom’s nous carrying us over the line vs Leicester (with a contingent of MFans wearing tigers shirts in the crowd by at least some accounts).

This would be different, this would be “lads do you remember that side and just how good they were”, the kind of stuff that legends are made of. It might be retrospective and 5 or 10 years in the future, and it may not be the same for Stuart Barnes - but lads who on here gives a genuine f%~k what that hack thinks about anything Leinster Rugby related anyway?


Honest question, because I certainly don’t…
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riocard911
Shane Jennings
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by riocard911 »

I was a big fan of Muhammed Ali as a kid. The Daddyman even took me to see him fight Blue Lewis in Croker. Later I was a massive fan of Mike Tyson. Some of the first and second round KO's he achieved were incomparable - to this day. He was one of the greatest fighters of all time, but loads of morons, incl. media hacks couldn't accept his brilliance. They wanted the 15 round slugfest. And that's what did for him in the end - the begrudgers. That's why I'd love us to give LAR a serious drubbing. Even just to put the thing out of sight in the first half à la Welford Road would be great, as that would ease my nerves enormously.
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blaker
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by blaker »

Agree with the two posts above

1) could not give a f@@k how anybody views us if there’s 5 on the jersey
2) this team IF they win on Saturday would stand as significantly technically better than predecessors

It’s the same underlying reason people will still talk about Munster more now even. The mysticism and nonsense. Give me a ruthless winning
Machine over f@@king Enya any day
Leinster jersey on the Great Wall of China.The Mongolians couldn't breach it but the Blues did!
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blockhead
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by blockhead »

Here's another reason not to like Leinster
Leinster's pipeline still pours private while outsiders struggle to stay afloat
If Tadhg Furlong’s calf doesn’t heal, there will be no Leinster Youth graduates in Euro final squad while Blackrock and St Michael’s are likely to have nine representatives
Leinster's pipeline still pours private while outsiders struggle to stay afloat
Fri, 27 May, 2022 - 06:44
Brendan O'Brien

Shane Horgan was the first. Add in Sean O’Brien and Tadhg Furlong and you have the Holy Trinity that has made it all the way from the Leinster Youths system and onto the exclusive roll call of just 54 players who have played for the province in one of their five European Cup finals to date.

Leinster have been operating a Youths system since the early 2000s and it has produced a string of excellent rugby players. Plenty have gone on to feature for their home province, more again found a home in Belfast, Limerick or Galway. Another cohort has etched out a professional career abroad.

Phil Lawlor has been working at the coalface of the Irish game for almost 30 years. Currently the Domestic Rugby Manager with Leinster, he is one part of a machine working away far from the blinding lights of a Stade Velodrome and which is cranking out a regular supply of professional players into the Irish landscape and beyond.

“We’re quite proud of the fact that we’ve had such a huge number of players through the club system," Lawlor says. "From a rugby point of view Leinster are providing over 40% of the professional rugby players in Ireland and the youth pathway is providing quite a number of them. They’re not your journeyman pros. They are adding huge value to that environment.”
No-one argues with that but the bald truth is that only 5.5% of the players that have played a part in previous deciders in Edinburgh, Cardiff, Twickenham, Bilbao and Newcastle - Leinster’s greatest of days - have been mined from a pathway that doesn’t involve the traditional fee-paying rugby schools.

It’s clearly not enough.

O’Brien was a world-class player, Furlong still is and Horgan was an exceptional wing who scored almost once every three games for Ireland. All three played in World Cups and for the British and Irish Lions but they are the exceptions to the rule for players discovered beyond the grounds of the Schools system.

Leo Cullen spoke about this only last week when stating Leinster are still only “scratching the surface” when it comes to the province’s playing pool. Trevor Hogan, now an elite player development officer with Leinster, says it will take more money and people on the ground to dig deeper. Lawlor goes along with that.

“What we need to do is we need to invest more in that programme," he argues. "We need to be able to give those players more contact hours, to give them better quality experience across all the capacities of player development: technical, tactical, physical, lifestyle, mental. And we need to be able to engage with them in their locality.”

Leinster have between 60-70 employees flitting about the province working on the four key pillars of promotion, participation, performance and high-performance. A player making the epic journey from minis through to academy and senior squad is propelled along those waters by a succession of coaches on and off the training field.

Kids enter the Leinster Youths system at the U15 grade where roughly 150 players are identified across the five regions, namely Midlands, North Midlands, Northeast, Southeast and Metro. Initially it involves one night a week of training and conditioning at a regional centre, an intensive summer programme and the inter-region Shane Horgan Cup.

From there it’s on to the U17 grade with its smaller pool and two nights a week of contact sessions. An open-ended system, players can drop out or drop in at any time. It’s only at the U19 staging post that those still in the Youths programme are integrated with their Schools counterparts and all of them come under the guise of elite development officers.

Whatever way we cut it, there is no escaping the reality that the best talents in the Club game are only entering the Leinster pathway at a time when their Schools counterparts are three years into secondary education and three years embedded into a Junior Cup cycle. That’s some head start.

So how do the Youth graduates stack up when they all finish their Leaving Cert?

“They’re not in a bad place,” said Lawlor. “The difference is contact time. The Schools player has that four or five days a week of rugby activity. And sometimes with a Schools player it is twice a day. It is an environment very conducive to development and maximising your ability.

“That’s not to say that the Club player doesn’t have the same potential and, for us, this is the challenge for our high-performance guys in identifying that potential and working with that potential to bring it to the next level, which is why we have that sub-academy environment.”

The demographics of Leinster’s squads have changed in one way but not in another.

Go back through any of their previous Heineken and Champions Cup final appearances and half the squads were private-schools alumni, another quarter was made up of non-Irish recruits and the rest came either from one of other provinces or they were a Horgan or an O’Brien.

If Tadhg Furlong’s calf doesn’t heal fully, and Ciaran Frawley fails to get the nod to start on the bench against La Rochelle, then Leinster will actually line up here in Marseille tomorrow with no graduate of the Youths stream in their matchday 23 for one of these finals for the very first time. Not ideal.

If this is a sign that they are becoming even more reliant on their traditional talent base then consider as well the fact that they are leaning more and more on just two of those institutions. Blackrock and St Michael’s, between them, are likely to have nine players in this weekend’s squad, compared to seven from the other schools.

There isn’t another club in the world that can mine the talent Leinster does from those sides that contest the province’s Schools Cup every year but you don’t need a business degree to understand that greater diversification would be key and there are over 70 clubs affiliated to the Leinster branch around the 12 counties with plenty more to offer.

“That takes a lot of work and a lot of cooperation from a lot of people,” said Lawlor, taking up the theme, “but if we just leave it in the hands of a certain cohort and say, ‘well, you know what, that’s where we’ll tie ourselves in to’, what happens if that cohort begins to fail?”

Unlikely, obviously, but imagine both pathways producing at full tilt.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
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Oldschool
Cian Healy
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Post by Oldschool »

The scribes are missing a huge opportunity or maybe don't want to see it.
This match is the classic David v Goliath.
The need for the game to find a saviour.
Brute force needs to be overcome for the sake of the future of the game.
Leinster can be that beacon of light, that bastion of quality that can rescue the game.
You get the picture.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
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