A whiff of Cordite

[Dexter]

From Brendan Fanning's piece on the Saracens game........Ouch!

"Would a full house have changed anything? It would have taken the roof off in the last quarter when Jordan Larmour was skating over. But that's only if they had come back from the bar after the first 20 minutes."

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 45336.html

The Irish media love putting the boot in when an Irish side loses, probably more so for Leinster. I'd avoid them for the week (if not forever) and look elsewhere.

[riocard911]

Ditto! Gav's headline in the IT, that the Pro 14 is "not fit for purpose" - was sadly predictable.

[hugonaut]

Ditto! Gav's headline in the IT, that the Pro 14 is "not fit for purpose" - was sadly predictable.

Loathe as I am to agree with Cummiskey, you can legitimately make that argument. We played Ulster and Munster twice [both top four teams in the Pro14] in the last month – once each in knock-out games, with everything on the line – and didn't experience anything like the pressure Saracens put us under.

On the other hand, Saracens have won three of the last four European Cups and are reigning champions, so they are an all-time great club team. They've lost some players since last season's final, but they had seven of the starting pack from the 2017 final [the odd man out being Kruis] in the starting pack at the weekend, and 10 of the same startes overall [Wigglesworth, Barritt and Goode].

[suisse]

GC is a bad journalist but some of his points are valid. When talk surfaced recently of a British and Irish league, many Irish fans scoffed at the idea. The argument being we have a league and it is fine. The Pro14 isn't fine and it isn't worth fighting to keep. Fans like it because Irish teams are competitive and regularly win. Look at the National media reaction to this league. On the Irish podcasts you listen to, or papers you read or website you log on to, how much conversation is there of games not involving Irish teams? OTB is only interested in Munster and Leinster. You could say these are the main Irish teams but we're in a league with 10 (12 if incl Connacht and Ulster who get no coverage). But the vast, vast majority of journalists, editors, producers and fans have no interest in Treviso v Dragons or Edinburgh v King's.

I really don't think Leinster should be playing half the Pr014 teams. Clubs on financial life support, attracting 3,000 fans per game. Some matches involve flights, transfers and accommodation. Spending so much to play irrelevant games against very poor opposition. We're also required to fly to South Africa and play in front of 800 people.

Adding the Super Rugby teams could work but I fear there'll be no local interest. Kicking the can down the road.

[Blueberry]

Far too many mediocre teams in the PRO 14 and Premiership. Logical thing to do is create a British / Irish League, reduce the number of PRO teams but just can't see this washing at the moment.

Not a GC fan but these are home truths - lets be 100% honest the PRO 14 is a bit of a joke and as Suisse says the Irish teams like it as we're always at the top end of it............

The SA team thing makes absolutely no sense, it's ridiculous and always has been.

[OTT]

Ditto! Gav's headline in the IT, that the Pro 14 is "not fit for purpose" - was sadly predictable.

I wonder was Saracens preparation fit for purpose.

Probably one of those amazing headlines that was dependent on the result to fall its way .

I wonder what it would have been if we won, Unbeatable Leinster put the final knock out punch on the Wolfpack Dynasty.

Apologies, I am as shocking as Gav

[joooooe]

Ditto! Gav's headline in the IT, that the Pro 14 is "not fit for purpose" - was sadly predictable.

Loathe as I am to agree with Cummiskey, you can legitimately make that argument. We played Ulster and Munster twice [both top four teams in the Pro14] in the last month – once each in knock-out games, with everything on the line – and didn't experience anything like the pressure Saracens put us under.

On the other hand, Saracens have won three of the last four European Cups and are reigning champions, so they are an all-time great club team. They've lost some players since last season's final, but they had seven of the starting pack from the 2017 final [the odd man out being Kruis] in the starting pack at the weekend, and 10 of the same startes overall [Wigglesworth, Barritt and Goode].

That's missing the point though. The headline is "Pro 14 is not for for purpose". Evidence for that assertion is provided in the form of Leinster losing to Saracens (the full headline is "Saracens prove Pro14 is not fit for purpose"). Ergo, the purpose of the Pro 14 is to prepare Leinster better to beat Saracens. In that, he is plainly wrong, which is hardly a surprise. There are many purposes for the Pro 14, but this is not one of them.

Gavin didn't think of this when he wrote that article – he thought of the other 23 and a half hours in the day and how he might spend them.

[Oldschool]

Interesting discussion on the Pro14.
The English and French are professional in that their focus is to make money and "provide" players to their international teams.
Their ultimate goal is to create a league that is bigger than the international scene and while they're at it get their hands on all that 6Ns lolly.
The 6Ns lolly is their ultimate goal regardless of how they achieve it.
The Pro14 especially for Ireland has a different purpose.
It's focused on player development for the international team and less on profit.
Pro14 for Irish fans, I suspect, is as much about seeing the young players coming through and making the international team strong.
The HCC provides the extra competitive edge that the teams and fans all need.
Building a league is long term.
Both Italian teams are starting to become more competitive, the Scottish teams are very competitive.
The real problem with the Pro14 has always been the Welsh but at least Scarlets are competitive and perhaps at last the WRU are finally going to focus on getting 3/4 teams up to speed. Gatland's success probably delayed the inevitable along with the desire to pay down debt on the Millennium Stadium.
Bottom line comparing the Pro14 with the other leagues is apples and oranges.

[cormac]

Ditto! Gav's headline in the IT, that the Pro 14 is "not fit for purpose" - was sadly predictable.

Loathe as I am to agree with Cummiskey, you can legitimately make that argument. We played Ulster and Munster twice [both top four teams in the Pro14] in the last month – once each in knock-out games, with everything on the line – and didn't experience anything like the pressure Saracens put us under.

On the other hand, Saracens have won three of the last four European Cups and are reigning champions, so they are an all-time great club team. They've lost some players since last season's final, but they had seven of the starting pack from the 2017 final [the odd man out being Kruis] in the starting pack at the weekend, and 10 of the same startes overall [Wigglesworth, Barritt and Goode].

Who exactly could we have played in the last four weeks who would have prepared us adequately for the pressure Saracens put us under? Surely the players are fully aware of what it's going to be like and should be fully prepared. We've played them in the previous two seasons so can't have been unaware of what was likely to happen. I can't imagine for a second that the squad would use it as an excuse either. I'd happily see the Pro14 replaced with a B&I League but the nature of the Pro14 hasn't changed in the last few seasons when we've been competitive with all the top English and French sides so for it to be considered relevant now is nonsense IMO.

The only difference with this season is that a good portion of our players haven't been hardened by regular international rugby.

I can only hope that the squad use this as a learning opportunity in the same way they did after the defeats to Clermont and Scarlets in 2017 and come back stronger and even more determined.

[hugonaut]

That's missing the point though. The headline is "Pro 14 is not for for purpose". Evidence for that assertion is provided in the form of Leinster losing to Saracens (the full headline is "Saracens prove Pro14 is not fit for purpose"). Ergo, the purpose of the Pro 14 is to prepare Leinster better to beat Saracens. In that, he is plainly wrong, which is hardly a surprise. There are many purposes for the Pro 14, but this is not one of them.

Gavin didn't think of this when he wrote that article – he thought of the other 23 and a half hours in the day and how he might spend them.

I rarely read Cummiskey's articles. He's a dose. I was really responding to Riocard911's quote.

I liked the Pro12 and have always been supportive of the many iterations that the league has gone through. It is a system that really works for Leinster and Ireland, because it effectively allows us to play about six teams' worth of players regularly at pro level – Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht, Leinster's second string, and a sixth composite 'team' of players who play frequently from each of the other three provinces .

Even if including the Italian teams upped the number of games, thus forcing double-scheduling with international windows and a decline in the strength of selection, it made sense in the context of the Six Nations.

But moving to the Pro14 has been sh*t – an experiment that hasn't panned out.

South African teams – simply by virtue of geography – should not be playing in European leagues. It is a massive waste of resources, time and effort. I think Super Rugby Aotearoa and Super Rugby AU have been huge successes, and I think the Currie Cup would be similarly successful. I am far more in favour of regional competition than cross-continental nonsense. I also think including Japan [and I love Japan] in the Six Nations is stupid.

[Dexter]

Who exactly could we have played in the last four weeks who would have prepared us adequately for the pressure Saracens put us under? Surely the players are fully aware of what it's going to be like and should be fully prepared. We've played them in the previous two seasons so can't have been unaware of what was likely to happen. I can't imagine for a second that the squad would use it as an excuse either. I'd happily see the Pro14 replaced with a B&I League but the nature of the Pro14 hasn't changed in the last few seasons when we've been competitive with all the top English and French sides so for it to be considered relevant now is nonsense IMO.

The only difference with this season is that a good portion of our players haven't been hardened by regular international rugby.

I can only hope that the squad use this as a learning opportunity in the same way they did after the defeats to Clermont and Scarlets in 2017 and come back stronger and even more determined.

Come on, it's obvious. We could have been playing one of those Premiership powerhouses Worcester or Leicester or London Irish, or even someone like Northampton - there's no way we'd have comfortable wins against any of those....

[Oldschool]

Ditto! Gav's headline in the IT, that the Pro 14 is "not fit for purpose" - was sadly predictable.

Loathe as I am to agree with Cummiskey, you can legitimately make that argument. We played Ulster and Munster twice [both top four teams in the Pro14] in the last month – once each in knock-out games, with everything on the line – and didn't experience anything like the pressure Saracens put us under.

On the other hand, Saracens have won three of the last four European Cups and are reigning champions, so they are an all-time great club team. They've lost some players since last season's final, but they had seven of the starting pack from the 2017 final [the odd man out being Kruis] in the starting pack at the weekend, and 10 of the same startes overall [Wigglesworth, Barritt and Goode].

Who exactly could we have played in the last four weeks who would have prepared us adequately for the pressure Saracens put us under? Surely the players are fully aware of what it's going to be like and should be fully prepared. We've played them in the previous two seasons so can't have been unaware of what was likely to happen. I can't imagine for a second that the squad would use it as an excuse either. I'd happily see the Pro14 replaced with a B&I League but the nature of the Pro14 hasn't changed in the last few seasons when we've been competitive with all the top English and French sides so for it to be considered relevant now is nonsense IMO.

The only difference with this season is that a good portion of our players haven't been hardened by regular international rugby.

I can only hope that the squad use this as a learning opportunity in the same way they did after the defeats to Clermont and Scarlets in 2017 and come back stronger and even more determined.

To answer both your question and Dexter's.
In a normal season we'd be coming off the back of some very tough 6Ns games to which a lot of our players would have been exposed to.
That would have provided the level of competition needed.
We had that level of tough competition last season and we all know what happened in the final.
Without a doubt the standard of the Pro14 needs to be improved and that should be the focus.

[Lar]

The job of the Pro14 is not prepare teams to be competitive in the Champions Cup. It is a league in itself and valuable in its purpose. It is the determinant of qualificaton for the Champions Cup and Challenge Cup but that is it's sole relationship with either of those tournaments.

Does the Scottish Premier League prepare Celtic for qualifying for/competing in the Champions League Group stages? Like hell it does.

Wth some notable exceptions you can say the same about the football leagues in Holland, Portugal, and just about every other football league outside the 'Big Five'.

Irish teams have traditionally done very well in the Heineken Cup, arguably we have punched away above our weight, given the league we play in week in week out.

As another counter point it has only been in the recent past that English teams have bemoaned the fact that our league does not have relegation and this affords us the chance of resting big players for big games. We even did so in a Pro14 Final a week before this Saracens game. Didn't matter last Saturday though.

Saracens beat us because they were better than us on the day. They have done us now twice in three seasons. I sincerely believe had this match been played in April we were in way better form then and would have beaten them but I still thought we would beat them on Saturday. Had either Toner or Conan caught the first kick-off and momentum been gained from a few small margins, and maybe one or two 50/50 reffing calls going our way, who the hell knows how Saturday would have panned out?

[fourthirtythree]

It's something of a non sequitur as we were stuffed by a team without a meaningful competitive game in their league either. In fact their games were so meaningless that they were able to focus entirely on this. Our coaches seem to have not been as focused as theirs were.

I mean I'm sure the Pro 14 is debatable, though experience shoes thia is cyclical, but European competition can't prove that point in this context due to the very unusual situation ar Saracens.

[OTT]

This tweet from a Welsh account on Twitter gave me a much needed chuckle last night.


Ruck 'n' Roll
@RnRRugby
So when there were 3 Pro 14 teams in the semi finals on the Champions Cup two years ago it was because the league wasn’t competitive.

Now there are none it’s because the league isn’t competitive. Pick a story and stick to it lads.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I was thinking about that narrative yesterday when I saw the Rhodes citing. If he’d been sent off and we had won easily then this week would be totally different.

[backrower8]

Lack of Dog another of many contributing factors. The 2011/2 teams had that in a young-Healy, Strauss, Hines/Thorn, Cullen, Seanie, Jenni, Jonny, Drico, Shaggy.

This squad lacking it but signs that the likes of Ryan, Doris, Kelleher, maybe Baird will mature into it. Furlong and Leavy have it in spades. Lowe too but he needs to round out his game.

Still not enough Dogs in the team a la Sarries who are all about dog and cohesion. Our team is a revolving door of evolution, with new combos and newbies almost every week. Nowhere does that take its toll more than up front in a genuine grunt contest.

The mental implosion in that first half is a massive issue.

[riocard911]

Lack of Dog another of many contributing factors. The 2011/2 teams had that in a young-Healy, Strauss, Hines/Thorn, Cullen, Seanie, Jenni, Jonny, Drico, Shaggy.

This squad lacking it but signs that the likes of Ryan, Doris, Kelleher, maybe Baird will mature into it. Furlong and Leavy have it in spades. Lowe too but he needs to round out his game.

Still not enough Dogs in the team a la Sarries who are all about dog and cohesion. Our team is a revolving door of evolution, with new combos and newbies almost every week. Nowhere does that take its toll more than up front in a genuine grunt contest.

The mental implosion in that first half is a massive issue.

Agree 100% There are many things to dislike about Saracens, but what no one can fault is their commitment. That tackle in the first half from Brad Barrit, by which he dislodged the ball from an onrushing Andrew Porter, was absolute top drawer D, Fergesque even - see how long it took him to get back to his feet after it.

[suisse]

This tweet from a Welsh account on Twitter gave me a much needed chuckle last night.


Ruck 'n' Roll
@RnRRugby
So when there were 3 Pro 14 teams in the semi finals on the Champions Cup two years ago it was because the league wasn’t competitive.

Now there are none it’s because the league isn’t competitive. Pick a story and stick to it lads.

Diffrent people have different opinions. We don't all stick to the party line. I thought the League lost significance when the Italians entered. They've added almost nothing. I'd rather we dumped them, maybe it a Pro10. 18 league games. Then add 2 more rounds of inter country games to generate more revenue and bring to a 20 game season. So, say, year 1 we have Ulster (h) and Munster (a). The next year Munster (h) and Connacht (a). Etc On top of the regular schedule.

Play more games that make more money. Stop wasting time traveling to Italy and playing to 1500 fans. Rugby calendar is full of games with no value

[neiliog93]

The four competent South African teams joining might actually help. Although, with the logistics, maybe not. Could become a bit of an alphabet soup of a league with complex conferences and ultimately destroy itself, a la Super Rugby.