Leinster A thread

[Munsterboy]

I think Jones is being developed as our first choice FB and will stick around for the long haul. Hurley is more effective on the wing but he'll have to fight for his place against the numerous other options we have there. Personally I would pick him ahead of most of them (Dowling included).

Deasy should be developed as a 12. We need an alternative to the bosh-merchants we keep signing and he has the skills to play the 2nd 5/8 role. Could be great alongside Earls.

It's ironic that we now have so many promising options at 13 just when we have Earls coming into his own. Can't see them all sticking around.

Who do you rate of the 13s aside from Earls? I really think your backline will struggle in the bigger games this year. Jones, Earls and a return to pre injury form for Tol (which I'm not holding my breath for) aside I see a lot of the other players as just being quite average tbh.

I really rate Barry Murphy (if he could stay fit). He's a quality OC imo. Then there's Mafi of course, although he might be better used on the wing. Of the young lads, Gleeson has done well, Danny Barnes also looks handy and Ivan Dineen showed serious promise in the A game yesterday. Johne Murphy is an option too but I wouldn't really rate him as a 13.

Can't say I agree that ROG and Doug Howlett are just average btw. We should have enough quality and pace in the backs to do damage if we can get some decent ball from TOL.

[amazingjason]

I'd agree with the Sheridan comments. Took contact slowing up, and looked to just pass it along when he got it. Very poor. I thought O'Donohue and Harris Wright were our best players, and Mackan played well also.

I was sitting next to Less Kiss and saw him putting a tick beside Kearney, O'Donohue and Harris Wrights names. I assume that means he thought they played reasonably well.

[gleesonisgod]

I'd agree with the Sheridan comments. Took contact slowing up, and looked to just pass it along when he got it. Very poor. I thought O'Donohue and Harris Wright were our best players, and Mackan played well also.

I was sitting next to Less Kiss and saw him putting a tick beside Kearney, O'Donohue and Harris Wrights names. I assume that means he thought they played reasonably well.

Sheridan has been out of the game for well over a year. Might just be lacking a bit of confidence, give him time.

[hugonaut]

Sheridan has been out of the game for well over a year. Might just be lacking a bit of confidence, give him time.

Didn't realise he has been out for so long. Overly harsh in my comments so, not easy to look good after that long off.

[gleesonisgod]

Sheridan has been out of the game for well over a year. Might just be lacking a bit of confidence, give him time.

Didn't realise he has been out for so long. Overly harsh in my comments so, not easy to look good after that long off.

Open to correction on this but the last time I remember him togging out for Lansdowne was before Christmas 2008. Like I said though, open to correction. Had Ostis Pubis I think?

[Munsterboy]

Sheridan has been out of the game for well over a year. Might just be lacking a bit of confidence, give him time.

Didn't realise he has been out for so long. Overly harsh in my comments so, not easy to look good after that long off.

Open to correction on this but the last time I remember him togging out for Lansdowne was before Christmas 2008. Like I said though, open to correction. Had Ostis Pubis I think?

Only saw him playing in your pre-season game v Wasps. Huge unit but looked like he didn't have the hands for this level. Maybe he was just rusty but it's a common enough failing in lads of that size who've spent their schools career bursting through the middle.

[ronk]

It's hard with players like him. He has a lot of adapting to do because in many ways the shock is bigger for the power based guys initially.

I'd expect it might take a while with him. It's easy to forget that we have such a good academy that we can get a little too used to players coming in and making an impact, so we automatically write off the guys who don't.

[D4surfer]

Sheridan had a hip replacement operation apparently.

I was at the game and could forgive him for being rusty. I thought he looked disinterested though.

[Donny B.]

Sheridan had a hip replacement operation apparently.

I was at the game and could forgive him for being rusty. I thought he looked disinterested though.

To be fair he wasn't the only one. An awful lot of the lads seemed to be just going through the motions.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think Jones is being developed as our first choice FB and will stick around for the long haul. Hurley is more effective on the wing but he'll have to fight for his place against the numerous other options we have there. Personally I would pick him ahead of most of them (Dowling included).

Deasy should be developed as a 12. We need an alternative to the bosh-merchants we keep signing and he has the skills to play the 2nd 5/8 role. Could be great alongside Earls.

It's ironic that we now have so many promising options at 13 just when we have Earls coming into his own. Can't see them all sticking around.

Who do you rate of the 13s aside from Earls? I really think your backline will struggle in the bigger games this year. Jones, Earls and a return to pre injury form for Tol (which I'm not holding my breath for) aside I see a lot of the other players as just being quite average tbh.

I really rate Barry Murphy (if he could stay fit). He's a quality OC imo. Then there's Mafi of course, although he might be better used on the wing. Of the young lads, Gleeson has done well, Danny Barnes also looks handy and Ivan Dineen showed serious promise in the A game yesterday. Johne Murphy is an option too but I wouldn't really rate him as a 13.

Can't say I agree that ROG and Doug Howlett are just average btw. We should have enough quality and pace in the backs to do damage if we can get some decent ball from TOL.

I really wouldn't share your optimism. I can't see a team with B.Murphy, Gleeson and/or Mafi in it doing much damage against the better teams. I'll admit that I haven't seen Barnes or Dineen and although have heard good things about Dineen in particular, I doubt he'll be involved in the big games this season. I may have been a bit harsh saying the likes of Howlett and Rog are average (class is permanent and all that) but I certainly think they're in decline and really think you needed bigger signings than Tuitupou and Murphy in the Summer. Both are good players but not really good enough imo. For me there's a massive gulf between Munster's backline and that of say Toulouse or even ourselves.

I'm not wumming btw. I think there's bags of talent coming through up front and that the experience those guys will get due to the IRFU management programme and the extra ML games this year will put the pack in a very strong position by this time next year but I just don't see that happening with the backs aside from those I already mentioned.

One player that I do think is incredibly talented is Zebo. I wouldn't have really thought so before seeing him against Connacht last season or the U-20 WC but was really impressed with him in both. From what I understand his attitude isn't great and he's very inconsistent but I definitely think he has the ability.

[Turnip Boy]

Zebo is very quick and looks good with ball in hand - but he doesn't go looking for work, waits for the game to come to him and at times his defense is still a bit suspect.

Bit harsh on Sammy - who would have reckoned that Halstead or Tipoki would be the big signings that we needed to play vital roles in our HEC wins. Sammy needs a bit more time to settle in but even so far his lines of running have been excellent at 12. He has created two tries in the two games so far without touching the ball - The first game for Felix Jones's try and against Edinburgh for DOC's try. In both games he had run hard and straight and recycled/offloaded the ball well for most of the game but for both tries he ran a cut back line close to the out half and sucked in several defenders to create the space for the try. Once Earls or Mafi are back fit and we have more pace in the outside centre slot we should be able to maximise his abilities further and create more tries.

[dropkick]

I really wouldn't share your optimism. I can't see a team with B.Murphy, Gleeson and/or Mafi in it doing much damage against the better teams. I'll admit that I haven't seen Barnes or Dineen and although have heard good things about Dineen in particular, I doubt he'll be involved in the big games this season. I may have been a bit harsh saying the likes of Howlett and Rog are average (class is permanent and all that) but I certainly think they're in decline and really think you needed bigger signings than Tuitupou and Murphy in the Summer. Both are good players but not really good enough imo. For me there's a massive gulf between Munster's backline and that of say Toulouse or even ourselves.

I'm not wumming btw. I think there's bags of talent coming through up front and that the experience those guys will get due to the IRFU management programme and the extra ML games this year will put the pack in a very strong position by this time next year but I just don't see that happening with the backs aside from those I already mentioned.

One player that I do think is incredibly talented is Zebo. I wouldn't have really thought so before seeing him against Connacht last season or the U-20 WC but was really impressed with him in both. From what I understand his attitude isn't great and he's very inconsistent but I definitely think he has the ability.

Munster have always lacked some class in the backs. At the moment theres alot of good players there. Center is the problem area. Scott Deasy is a class player who I think will eventually be a 12. I don't see the point of not playing him now, its typical Munster. Tuitupou is ok but no Jean De Villiers. Johne Murphy is not a center. I havn't see too much of Danny Barnes to comment. Mafi is to come back also.

Theres alot of average players too. Duncan Williams won't set the world on fire and Dowling and Denis Hurley are good pros but fairly average wingers. I did think Denis Hurley had potential but he hasn't showed it. We can also forget about Barry Murphy because he's one of those players made of glass.

I've heard good things about Dineen. From what I hear he has size, speed and a bit of class. He missed out on the academy and is about 22 years old but alot of very good players do miss out. Sean Scanlon is another late comer who played well in last seasons B&I cup final. He was probably Munsters best player. I havn't seen enough of Danny Barnes to comment but he seems to be highly rated by McGahan.

As for Zebo, I didn't think much of him. People say he has a bad attitude but maybe hes just not good enough. In the U20 6 nations the underrated Hudson and especially Tiernan O'Halloran looked better players.

[hugonaut]

Munster have always lacked some class in the backs. At the moment theres alot of good players there. Center is the problem area. Scott Deasy is a class player who I think will eventually be a 12. I don't see the point of not playing him now, its typical Munster. Tuitupou is ok but no Jean De Villiers. Johne Murphy is not a center. I havn't see too much of Danny Barnes to comment. Mafi is to come back also.

Theres alot of average players too. Duncan Williams won't set the world on fire and Dowling and Denis Hurley are good pros but fairly average wingers. I did think Denis Hurley had potential but he hasn't showed it. We can also forget about Barry Murphy because he's one of those players made of glass.

I've heard good things about Dineen. From what I hear he has size, speed and a bit of class. He missed out on the academy and is about 22 years old but alot of very good players do miss out. Sean Scanlon is another late comer who played well in last seasons B&I cup final. He was probably Munsters best player. I havn't seen enough of Danny Barnes to comment but he seems to be highly rated by McGahan.

As for Zebo, I didn't think much of him. People say he has a bad attitude but maybe hes just not good enough. In the U20 6 nations the underrated Hudson and especially Tiernan O'Halloran looked better players.

Thought Zebo was extremely impressive against England in the U20s World Cup, Ireland's best player on the day. Attitude counts for absolutely sh*t-loads though – Ian Dowling is 90% attitude and has made a very successful career out of it. Works hard every day, listens to people who know better, works at what he's perceived to be bad at, and always looks to get involved on the pitch. Doesn't make him a great guy or a hero, but it sure is a great work ethic.

Like you say, signing Tuitupou was typical, typical Munster [just like they'd say signing Heinke van der Merwe is typical Leinster]: absolutely unwilling to give a young Irish player a chance in a problem position for them.

How many non-Munster born 12s have Munster had now? Tuitopou, De Villiers, Mafi, Halstead, Connolly, Henderson, Mullins, Holland – in fact Munster haven't started an Irish-born 12 in the HEC since Killian Keane vs Castres 20/01/01; they haven't started an Irish-qualified one since Mike Mullins against the Ospreys on 08/01/05. That's absolutely f*cking ridiculous [... and before anyone asks, the last Leinster-born tighthead to start in the HEC was Emmet Byrne in 2006].

[Dave Cahill]

Killian Keane is from Dublin (Skerries I think)

Edit: scrum.com says hes from Drogheda

[hugonaut]

Killian Keane is from Dublin (Skerries I think)

Edit: scrum.com says hes from Drogheda

Good God. It's Cian Mahoney then vs Pontypridd on 20/11/99.

[Leinsterman]

Sheridan had a hip replacement operation apparently.

Now I know that hip replacement surgery has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years but I doubt if he had a hip replacement.
General run of the mill stuff is ok after an operation like that but I couldn't see a surgeon giving someone the ok to go play a full contact hard knocks sport like rugby!

[JoseFantastique]

Killian Keane is from Dublin (Skerries I think)

Edit: scrum.com says hes from Drogheda

Good God. It's Cian Mahoney then vs Pontypridd on 20/11/99.

12 has been a problem position for us but even so, we've been shocking at developing outside backs in the pro era. Since the big money arrived in 2000 or so, the only Munster born/bred players to break into the team as an outside back are B. Murphy and Earls, iirc.

The pro game has seemed to allow us focus virtually exclusively on producing hookers, second rows and scrumhalves, which is why last weeks result is a great one for Munster. Most of the players are from the Munster system and finally we seem to be bringing through backrowers. There's been some debate on mf.com about the decline of players coming from Limerick but it occurs to me that until pretty recently, both Cork and Limerick were underproducing and judging by the latest figures (Academy, schools etc), Limerick is finally getting back to parity with Cork, who themselves were catching up with Leinster's system.

[hugonaut]

Sheridan had a hip replacement operation apparently.

Now I know that hip replacement surgery has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years but I doubt if he had a hip replacement.
General run of the mill stuff is ok after an operation like that but I couldn't see a surgeon giving someone the ok to go play a full contact hard knocks sport like rugby!

There's a number of different techniques that are in practice, like resurfacing the ball [i.e. the head of the femur] with a thin layer of titamium or another similar alloy to reduce friction with the socket [i.e. the pelvis]. It's not quite like the older type that people associate with little old ladies falling into holes in the street and having a hip that looks like a robot in an x-ray!

[hugonaut]

Killian Keane is from Dublin (Skerries I think)

Edit: scrum.com says hes from Drogheda

Good God. It's Cian Mahoney then vs Pontypridd on 20/11/99.

12 has been a problem position for us but even so, we've been shocking at developing outside backs in the pro era. Since the big money arrived in 2000 or so, the only Munster born/bred players to break into the team as an outside back are B. Murphy and Earls, iirc.

The pro game has seemed to allow us focus virtually exclusively on producing hookers, second rows and scrumhalves, which is why last weeks result is a great one for Munster. Most of the players are from the Munster system and finally we seem to be bringing through backrowers. There's been some debate on mf.com about the decline of players coming from Limerick but it occurs to me that until pretty recently, both Cork and Limerick were underproducing and judging by the latest figures (Academy, schools etc), Limerick is finally getting back to parity with Cork, who themselves were catching up with Leinster's system.

There've been a couple of good Munster-born outside backs in that time though, namely John Kelly and Anthony Horgan.

The thing about the 12 situation in Munster that sort of beggars belief is that you had a guy like Jeremy Staunton on your doorstep with every single attribute to play 12, and yet he didn't get a single run-out there in the HEC ... a really stunning lack of vision. I was a big, big fan of Dutchy Holland as a player, and certainly wouldn't under-rate his abilities. However, Staunton at 20 looked like he had the talent to be a world-beater, and it's just a shame that he was prodded between 10 and 15 and that no-one saw that, while he wasn't quite right for either of those positions, he could have been a great fit at 12.

Same with Scott Deasy – he doesn't have the size to be a fullback, and his kicking game [especially his place-kicking] isn't reliable enough to be a 10. However, he's a good, intelligent and confident footballer, and 12 looks a good fit for him. Just hope that he gets a couple of games there.

[Dave Cahill]

[
There've been a couple of good Munster-born outside backs in that time though, namely John Kelly and Anthony Horgan.

Me again...I'm afraid that the most underrated Irish back of the professional era is also a Dub.


I'n not following you around, honest.