Why cant Irish players do what Rocky does?

[velvitjester]

Ive just watched the semi final and im in the process of watching the final.
A few times in this final Murphy kicks the ball strait down the throat of Elsom who run back into space and kills some of their defenders.

There is no reason Heaslip,O'Brien or Jennings (who shows good pace in this match btw) could not do this.
So why dont they?

Is it a question of talent or the way they were brought up in regards to coaching?

Personally I think its the way they were coached,hes obviously been encouraged to run,whereas they have been encouraged to look for contact.

This is exacly what kills NH rugby in relation to the SH imo.

[neiliog93]

There's a big culture in the sh of always looking for the offload, keeping the ball alive and keeping the pace up.

This is seen as far too risky by nh school coaches, as there is a bigger risk of giving away possession with an offload/run that might make you out on your own than there is with a simply running into contact and setting up the ruck.

This is probably because winning is so important at schools level in most nh countries, rather than developing young players' skills and attacking intuition for later years - like in the sh.

I have personal experience of this ( I was berated a couple of years ago for having the audacity to throw in an offload in a cup quarter final against Michaels. There was 5 minutes to go and we were winning 33 - 0. The offload even went to hand).

That's the sort of bullshit we're up against. That "winning is the most important thing" attitude that plagues all Irish sports at youth level, but particularly rugby.

[neiliog93]

And that is why Irish players can't do what southern hemisphere players can - they've been taught all the way through not to.

I'm sure Rocky's early days in rugby weren't like that - he was probably rewarded for trying something adventurous.

[Mauler]

There's a big culture in the sh of always looking for the offload, keeping the ball alive and keeping the pace up.

This is seen as far too risky by nh school coaches, as there is a bigger risk of giving away possession with an offload/run that might make you out on your own than there is with a simply running into contact and setting up the ruck.

This is probably because winning is so important at schools level in most nh countries, rather than developing young players' skills and attacking intuition for later years - like in the sh.

I have personal experience of this ( I was berated a couple of years ago for having the audacity to throw in an offload in a cup quarter final against Michaels. There was 5 minutes to go and we were winning 33 - 0. The offload even went to hand).

That's the sort of bullshit we're up against. That "winning is the most important thing" attitude that plagues all Irish sports at youth level, but particularly rugby.

Agree with you, check out this try by Philippe Saint-André for France in Twickenham in 1991 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyXlSvELtOM
The French backs were amazing in that era, because they took risks, they ran into space, not into contact, and were willing to run the ball from behind their own line. But the philosophy of many rugby teams now is to kick away possession in order to force the opposition team into an error, thus playing the percentages. And the instructionsons the Refs are given in policing this area will continue to create this negative spectacle. Teams are kicking the ball away because defenses will not commit to the breakdown and the only way to break defences is by kicking the ball away.

[simonno6]

why can't australian players do what BOD does?

[T.C.B.]

Touche.

[ronk]

While there's an aspect of aversion to risk taking and an emphasis on tackling and hard work at younger levels (I know a decent JCT flanker who thinks he's doing something wrong if the ball is in his hands (outside of a ruck or maul) it's also easy to point out that not everyone can be like Rocky because Rocky is great. Those times he ran the ball back into decent cover from deep would have been punished severely had a player of lesser ability attempted it.

We don't have players who tackle as well as him or backrow who are as good in lineouts. Come to think of it, Rocky would have been a 2nd row had he come through in Ireland.

[Oscar]

Ive just watched the semi final and im in the process of watching the final.
A few times in this final Murphy kicks the ball strait down the throat of Elsom who run back into space and kills some of their defenders.

There is no reason Heaslip,O'Brien or Jennings (who shows good pace in this match btw) could not do this.
So why dont they?

It's a common tactic in some teams to leave a backrower covering in the back 3, getting a short rest, and being on hand to aid a counter attack by taking a pass, catching a kick etc and just charging up the guts of the defence. No reason an Irish forward couldn't do it, except most of our teams tend to prefer to have all 8 forwards at the defensive line.

I do remember Anthony Foley doing it to great effect against South Africa in November 2004. About the only time in his career we ever saw Axel get up a head of steam and run over some tacklers. Wood used to do it occasionally too. I'd love to see us try it with Ferris, Heaslip or Leamy next season. I'd love to see O'Brien or Heaslip doing it for Leinster too.

[Oldschool]

Wrong question - Why can't Australian players do what BOD does?
Apologies - I've just noticed the question has been put already.
Ah well - Great minds and all that.......

[velvitjester]

Stirling Mortlock aint too shabby.

[gfo]

well the leinster team have got abuse for years for being a bunch of fairy ballet types for running with ball in hand and taking risks in attacking play. the general attitude in this country was 'go through the phases, grind out a try' and we are very traditional when it comes to tactics/playmaking

[anonymous_joe]

well the leinster team have got abuse for years for being a bunch of fairy ballet types for running with ball in hand and taking risks in attacking play. the general attitude in this country was 'go through the phases, grind out a try' and we are very traditional when it comes to tactics/playmaking

Tactically Ireland's the kind of country where someone who invented the wheel would have been burned as a witch.

There's a big emphasis on winning as a kid, which isn't condusive to flair play, and moreover there's always been a love in this country of passion, fire, guts, playing the pick and drive et al.

[simonno6]

Wrong question - Why can't Australian players do what BOD does?
Apologies - I've just noticed the question has been put already.
Ah well - Great minds and all that.......

[RoboProp]

I have a theory about how all Irish schools pick players positions the same way.
Fat and short in first year - Prop
Fat and short in first year with some hand eye coordination - Hooker
Lanky - Second row
Fast- Wing
Some kicking skills - FB or OH
Don't really know what to do with you but thanks for showing up- Centre
Half leprechaun, Half Jack Russell terrier - SH
Spend half your life in detention - Back rower

[leinsterlank]

I have a theory about how all Irish schools pick players positions the same way.
Fat and short in first year - Prop
Fat and short in first year with some hand eye coordination - Hooker
Lanky - Second row
Fast- Wing
Some kicking skills - FB or OH
Don't really know what to do with you but thanks for showing up- Centre
Half leprechaun, Half Jack Russell terrier - SH
Spend half your life in detention - Back rower

so true!!I play fullback, centre now, but because I was tall when I was young (lanky?) I was tried at second row and I just hated it!!It really is a very poor position.

[Leinsterman]

It's a common tactic in some teams to leave a backrower covering in the back 3, getting a short rest, and being on hand to aid a counter attack by taking a pass, catching a kick etc and just charging up the guts of the defence.

PArisse has made a career out of it, hiding away from rucks as much as possible waiting for the opportunity to do a Hollywood run

[gfo]

I have a theory about how all Irish schools pick players positions the same way.
Fat and short in first year - Prop
Fat and short in first year with some hand eye coordination - Hooker
Lanky - Second row
Fast- Wing
Some kicking skills - FB or OH
Don't really know what to do with you but thanks for showing up- Centre
Half leprechaun, Half Jack Russell terrier - SH
Spend half your life in detention - Back rower

so true, if you're a fat bloke you dont need any kind of skill and you can get picked for tighthead, guys who play GAA walk into FB positions, centres are guys who can play but aren't exceptional anyway, but i've also found SH is a bit of a place filler position too, myself and my mate both got picked at SH and we couldn't pass a test, never mind a ball.

[[Jackass]]

I went from out-half, to centre, back to out-half, then to 7.

All great positions to play.

[BlueBlue]

why can't the rest of the world do what BOD does ?

[deco]

why can't ROG do what Sexton does?